6-year-old out of control

[snottagecheese]

DD is a bright, funny, confident little girl who is also, at times, a complete nightmare. I know this isn't unusual, but increasingly I worry about the extent and frequency of her tantrums, and just don't know what to do.

This morning's episode began when she said 'I wish I could watch something before school' and I said 'Sorry honey, no, you know we never watch TV before school as there's not enough time.' So it's not as though I was saying no to something she usually has, and she must have known what my answer would be. This was followed initially by stropping, calling her brother names, refusing to get dressed, etc, and escalated to stomping off, shouting, hitting, then screaming. I asked her to stop, then eventually if there was something else wrong, what I could do to cheer her up, etc. All to no avail, it simply increased her rage. This follows last night's epic rage-fest which at least had a more understandable trigger - her homework, which she can easily do but just didn't want to, and she became crosser and stroppier, then physically violent - pushing and hitting me. At that point I'm afraid I grabbed her arm and shook her quite hard, which I am absolutely not proud of. I don't hit her but I do occasionally find myself shaking her - not making excuses but I can remain calm through all the shouting, screaming, rude and unkind comments, slamming doors, throwing things at me - but occasionally, and it's not every time by any means, when she physically attacks me I find myself retaliating. She is tall for her age, and strong, and when she hits me or punches me it actually hurts. (For those who are thinking 'Don't try and do homework with a 6-year-old in the evening' - you're right, but she has reacted the same way when we've done it on a Sunday morning, so the time of day isn't really the problem.)

Anyway, I just don't know what to do (a) about the tantrums (b) about her physical attacks and (c) about making sure I never grab her or shake her myself. I'm well aware that I can't very well tell her she must never hit, kick, punch, etc me if I grab her back. But the triggers are so unpredictable or seem so ridiculously minor - or often there doesn't even seem to be one at all, she just switches from sweet and gentle to furious and violent. She's happy at school as far as I know, occasionally a bit jealous of her younger brother who is, unfortunately for her, at optimum cute age (just about to turn 2), but while that isn't entirely irrelevant, it is in no way the whole story - she has always been like this, easily angered, raging and furious over the smallest things. We used to think it was just the terrible twos, threes, fours... but it's clearly part of her personality and as well as finding it very hard to cope with, I also wish we could help her to manage her anger, because it can't be very good for her or make her feel good about herself.

I should add that much of the time she is lovely - kind, sweet, funny, clever, and overall I think both I and DH have a good relationship with her. We are also conscious of praising the good whenever we can and telling her we're proud of her (re school, her brilliant drawings, playing nicely with her brother, calm days, the way she's kind to others, etc etc). There are lots of cuddles and giggles and I love yous from both sides... but it's just this temper. I genuinely fear for the future when she is 14 (or 13, or 15, 16, etc) and taller and stronger than me (I am 5'2" and she is going to be tall like her dad - she's already nearly up to my shoulder). Will she still be thumping me? And she'll be storming out of the house and I won't be able to stop her... At the moment all I can see is things escalating as she grows, and I don't know what to do...

Firstly, I would stop 'trying to cheer her up' when she is in a strop and instead take control of the situation. Her rage increasing is probably down to you not taking control and allowing her to dictate what she wants?
You need to speak to her in a firm voice and let her know what is not acceptable. Don't react to her being in a strop - just say what you expect and stick to it and don't get into an argument with her.
If she goes to lash out you need to get hold of her firmly without reacting in a retaliation type of way and remove her to her room until she calms down.

Thanks for replying. Well, I do generally talk firmly, tell her she's behaving unacceptably and needs to stop - and indeed I did initially this morning, but it made no difference (and often doesn't). So I had a 'maybe I should try and be more attachment parent about this' moment, hence trying to delve into the cause rather than addressing the outcome. I think that's another problem I'm having - that we've tried all the approaches over the years (from very firm to very gentle) and none is more discernibly effective than the others. It's interesting what you say about her wanting me to take control, though. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

As for getting hold of her calmly - I like the theory but in practice she would be trying to punch and kick me away. So do I 'let' her, i.e. ignore it as I pursue the goal to get her to her room? She won't stay in her room, either, so what then? Often she follows me round the house, trying to prolong the argument, getting more and more angry as I ignore her.

It sounds like you keep changing how you handle things, trying to do the 'right' thing? The lack of consistency won't help.
I often think it is down to a mothers personality and confidence because I never think about 'what type' of parenting' to apply - I just use common sense and would never allow that sort of behaviour from my child.
If I know I am right and my child is being difficult in that way, it doesn't bother me if they are 'upset' because it is frustration and anger and they have to learn that they cannot have things the way they want - especially if they are being unreaonable.
That may sound 'cold' but it isn't,..I am affectionate and loving with my DD but was not afraid for her to 'hate' me for 5 minutes.

It is not easy or quick to break the cycle - its bloody hard. You can hold a child firmly in a way that they cannot hit out at you and if she comes out of her room you just keep putting her back without saying anything.

It sounds like you have allowed her that control from being very young so yes, it will get worse if you do not tackle it now,..unless she magically changes all by herself.
I think it is best to start as you mean to go on - but that is not always easy unless you know what to do.

OK, I'm sorry, but now you sound patronising. I have not 'allowed her control' from an early age - she is incredibly strong-willed and has been since the day she was born, and we have always been very firm about what kind of behaviour is acceptable and what isn't. She knows this, but sometimes she won't or can't tie in with it.

She is 6, she is tall and strong. It is no longer possible (for me, anyway) to hold her in a way that prevents her from lashing out at me. When she was younger we tried, for a prolonged period (weeks, months), to put her in her room when she was angry and lashing out, and she never stayed there. She did not care about consequences. We certainly did start as we meant to go on, but it didn't work.

Please don't imply that I was, or am, clueless: "I often think it is down to a mothers personality and confidence ... I just use common sense and would never allow that sort of behaviour from my child."? "...that is not always easy unless you know what to do"? In those three sentences you have implied that I have no confidence, common sense, or understanding of how to bring up a child. If you had a very strong-willed child you would realise that it's not about 'allowing' them not to behave a certain way - they do behave that way, and it's about trying to find ways to tackle and manage that. If you have a child that responds easily to a firm 'no' then good for you, but don't fool yourself that it's all down to you.

Basically you, seem to be telling me that I've been doing it completely wrong for all these years and I now have a long road ahead of me while I try to 'undo' all my mistakes. If anyone else has any more practical advice (or understanding of what it's like to parent a 'wilful' child), then I'd be very grateful to hear it.

I am sorry you took it that way.
I presumed you had 'allowed' her control because that is what you seem to be doing now by trying to 'cheer her up' instead of taking control of her behaviour.
I didn't imply you were clueless either. Our behaviour IS down to how confident we feel and our personality. Some people find it easy to take control and others don't - It is NOT about being 'wrong'
We ALL make mistakes. We don't intend to - we try our best.

It is HOW you do things - You say you tried for weeks or months to get her to stay in her room but she wouldnt stay there for a required time?

You seem to want advice on how to 'fix' her rather than how to change the way you handle it. I don't think that will ever work.

I apologise if I came across as patronising. It was well intentioned.

Have a look at behavioural modification strategies. I experienced similar to what you described and still do now but found that behavioural modification helped. The first step is to spend a week or two looking at your own reaction to your kids behaviour. As soon as i had this in mind and reminded myself every time my son threw unreasonable tantrums, my usual reaction would had made the situation worse but by changing my reaction, his behaviour changed too. It took time and i'm still struggling some days but the reward system along with teaching consequences and being consistent has helped me greatly.

I feel your pain.

And Davsmum, your comment 'I would never allow that behaviour from my child' made me feel really crap too.

My dd (6.5) gets into rages, and when she does, it's really impossible to get through to her, she's just not listening. If I tried to make her go to her room or wherever, it just becomes a physical battle which isn't right.

OP I haven't got any answers, I'm just trying to talk to dd about what's happened when she's calmer and trying to de-escalate things before she hits the rage point. Sometimes I can look back and think I could have handled something differently which would have helped (like getting us all up earlier so we're not in a rush) but sometimes she completely over reacts when I say no to something appropriately or tell her off for something.

And Davsmum, your comment 'I would never allow that behaviour from my child' made me feel really crap too.
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Well I am sorry - but I wouldn't allow it.
It really was not said to make you or anyone else feel crap - it was just the truth.
If you feel crap, thats not really my fault.

OP my 6yo DS can be the same. It's tough. He seems to be going through a calmer period now, what I've found helps is a combination of two approaches, the AP/gentle stuff for persuading in the first place - avoid demanding like an army sergeant or getting into situations where you punish - she reacts defiantly - you punish the defiance - she raises her game - you raise yours - etc. It doesn't end well. It's like they have a much higher trigger than other children, where most children would think "OK I've pushed it too far now, I'd better stop" it just fuels them and they will go farther than you thought possible, pushing you to go further than you ever thought you would. So. You can give them a certain level of responsibility for stuff themselves, that helps. For the homework say that you will help her but it has to be done and can she help you make a timetable for homework - which nights she gets it, which nights it's due, and the important one - which night she's going to do it. You set a start time. Make it pleasant - get a drink, get some healthy snacks or nice music playing or something, a comfortable chair, some nice stationery - whatever motivates her. After she's finished the homework, let her know that time is hers to do whatever she wants in. Stop after an hour or so regardless - after a certain time you've just done it to death and it's just going to be more stress than its worth. You might be better off letting her have a break, too, with two sessions of 15-20 minutes or so. But a break can make it harder to get into again for some children.

Second - make sanctions or control measures neutral and not requiring her co-operation. For rudeness and violence I impose 30 minutes of screen time lost for each hit etc. That is informed to him and no other comment is given - this is really important. Don't lecture or plead or give her chances. Just - strike one, you did X, you have lost Y. If he goes to turn on the TV or whatever anyway we take the controller and hide it or take the batteries. Minimum fighting and fuss required, computer is password protected so he has to ask to go on it anyway. Don't ever be tempted to end the ban early or waive it - it's just a thing, it's not terrible or frightening, it happens. We move on.

For wasting time/dithering over the start of doing things, you can make it neutral by measuring the time rather than getting angry that it's not happening and frustrated that she won't just do it. Either use a digital timer you can start and stop, a sand timer you can put on its side, or count slowly to a large-ish number, like 10. Run the timer/countdown when she's wasting time and stop it when she's making progress towards the thing. Don't engage in any discussion, excuses, reasoning. Just keep counting down. At the end of the countdown she loses something, or with a digital timer which counts the entire time, you can take it off her free time, bedtime, whatever. The point is that you're not engaging into a discussion about it, it's just what it is. She is choosing to forfeit that time.

As a note of solidarity - I cannot hold DS so that he can't hurt me. It's impossible - he comes up to my chest and will kick off the floor, furniture etc if I try to hold him. He will also bite if he is really pushed and no other infliction is possible. While he's in this mood (which is, thankfully, very rare these days) it doesn't matter what consequences you threaten he is just unable to listen or process anything at all. DH can - he sits on the ground and holds his legs with his legs and his arms crossed across his chest over his. It looks awful but it does work and it doesn't hurt them except for the fact they struggle against you madly. We had this for the last time at the zoo several months ago. More recently I put myself into a room with a door opening inwards and sit against the door, with my phone or a book or another distraction until he calms down.

Most of the time DS will stay in his room if threatened with a far more serious consequence - we increase the time of the ban to an outlandish length like a week. (Compared to 30 minutes, that's long!) If he's totally in this violent/uncontrolled rage then he won't listen to that either though so the only thing which works is separation or restraint.

Have you heard of Pathological Demand Avoidance? It is ringing bells for me recently although we seem to be in a calm period, touch wood! A lot of the stuff recommended for PDA management seems to be things we've discovered help along the years as well. I know what you mean about trying everything yet not chopping and changing - over six years, it's a lot of time to try different approaches yet be consistent with them.

One more thing jumps out at me - perhaps when she was saying "I wish I could watch TV before school" she wasn't actually asking for anything, she just wanted you to sympathise with her and not fix it. You could perhaps have said "Mm, yes, the mornings seem to go so fast, don't they?" or "Wouldn't it be lovely if we didn't have anywhere to be and we could laze about all day!" (Be careful BTW not to add "But we can't, so hurry up or we'll be late", no matter the temptation!) Do you have the book How To Talk So Kids Will Listen? I've found it suddenly becoming hugely relevant to my life now DS is this age and re-reading has been really beneficial.

How nice would it be to have a child where you could just "Not allow" something and it would never happen This is like the magical "Firm voice" that is supposed to magically control children but doesn't seem to work on mine.

I could probably "Not allow" stuff if I decided to go Victorian in my discipline methods, but I think that is frowned upon these days....

I sympathise. I don't think it is about confidence as a mother but I do think the PP who mentioned your DD wanting you to take control is correct. My DS can be prone to tantrums. I'm just going to list some of the strategies that have helped but realise you may have already tried them:

• I bought a few different children's books about emotions eg being angry; feeling sad. We read them together. Then we talked about how we physically feel when we're angry so DS could start to identify that he was feeling angry because his tummy felt different, etc

• we talked about different techniques for when we're feeling angry eg having a quiet space; shouting really loud; punching a pillow; jumping up and down; singing an 'angry' song; drawing away our anger. We tried all of these and more. Different ones worked at different times but it was also about DS learning he could manage his emotions and choose what to do next

• we validated his anger (eg we know you're angry because . . . ). This didn't mean we gave in to it. It just meant we restated why he had to do whatever was making him angry

• we looked at our own behaviours to see if he was mirroring us and we talked to him about when we felt angry but were choosing to walk away, count to ten, ie manage our anger in some way. (we also realised that he thought we were angry when we weren't so that was enlightening)

• we identified triggers eg tiredness

• we persevered with putting him to his room if he was violent. Even if it meant repeatedly putting him back or sitting in the room with him whilst doing something else. (this worked. he will now go to his room when first told, and will stay there)

• we established strong routines for trigger points ie mornings and homework.

• we walked away if we were getting too angry

• we have a morning star chart where he can draw the star. He likes seeing the progress and if he starts to get grumpy, a reminder that he won't get a star can stop him sometimes

Sorry, I've typed a saga but hopefully maybe some of the points will help. It's hard but try not to take her hitting/punching personally. If it's triggering emotions in you then it might be worth chatting through with your DP why it's triggering for you. In my case, my DF was quite violent so I know I have an automatic emotional reaction to anyone raising their hand to me, but that isn't DS' fault or responsibility.

Also - sorry not sure this was explained well. Re homework. Example:

Your agreement is you will start homework at 5pm immediately after dinner.

After homework, she can do whatever she likes until bedtime (say 7pm, 6.30 on bath night).

So - if she starts at 5pm, finishes in 20 minutes, she then has somewhere between 60-90 minutes to do what she likes.

However if she messes around, whines, moans, screeches, for an hour, starts at 6pm, gets silly with it, doesn't finish properly, by the time she has finished it's time for her bath - she's lost all of the time she had to play or do what she wanted.

Allow far more time than she needs, but offer the extra, unused time as a sort of bribe, if that makes sense - it gives her control over how to use her time. If she's choosing to flop around and whine and make excuses and need to suddenly do something else awkward she doesn't have any time left to do what she wants later.

Children will ALWAYS push boundaries and test you.
Some people talk about their children as if they are a totally unmanageable force.
If you mean what you say and impose consequences in a consistent way then you are not 'allowing' them to behave in a certain way. A firm voice does work if used in a calm and consistent way.
When it doesn't work - you look at how you are doing it before you claim it doesn't work for your child.

There are some helpful suggestions here. Wondering if anyone has had or knows of a child who has been difficult to handle and prone to rages and how the teenage years have been? I too often worry how things will be when dd is 13, 14, 15. Am just hoping we can help her learn to control her emotions a bit before then but adding hormones into the mix - yikes!

Davsmum has no idea. Ignore. "I would never allow my child to do that" is truly the statement of the ignorant. I used to say it before I had children! I was naive!

Anyhow....you have my utmost sympathy. We had this with my ds for 3 years, starting in reception. It was hell. I am a great mum and I. Tried. Everything. For example, being firm, ignoring, gluten free, no crap at all, stopped all after school activities, all play dates, took to playground everyday, smacking, visual charts, same breakfast every day, brought loads of plants to make house calm, put on calming classical music, cuddled him very tight etc etc etc. on and on. We were starting to think home school.

He hit and he hit and hit. He spat, pinched, screamed and screamed and screamed. There is something very primeval that happens when anyone else hits you, even your own child. It is very damaging. Again you have my sympathy.

So, the only thing that has worked it going to see a retained reflex therapist. We see Bob Allen in Windsor. I have had one friend and one friend of friend all go as well. Does your dd have any other probs? For example my son could not assess risk, climbed higher than anyone else, very bad with change, hated labels etc. the picture was confusing we were looking at special needs.

So we started last June, and our house in 10x calmer. No tantrums (if they do, they are couple of minutes). Reasonable, says yes to lots and lots. Less teasing. We can now use normal parenting techniques that now work!

Lots of love. Keep posting.

Another vote for reading How To Talk So Kids Will Listen. I am finding it really very helpful with DS (7).

Davsmum has no idea. Ignore. "I would never allow my child to do that" is truly the statement of the ignorant. I used to say it before I had children! I was naive!
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Strewth!! Give me strength... Its the statement of someone who has managed to deal with those situations. Everyone is naive before they have children.

My 6yr old is behaving in a very similar way. He is the oldest and gets very upset when he sees his sibling doing things he can't (because he has homework to do).
We are working on giving him control and choices and it seems to be helping. He chooses a small daily reward (e.g choosing what's for dinner, extra bedtime story) and decides what time to do his jobs/homework.

How to talk and Calmer, easier happier parenting are really helping and getting results (although he has dug his heels in and refused to play his instrument for 3 days!)

'Playful Parenting' is a good book too. I think the techniques we use are probably a combination from How to Talk and Playful Parenting.

Playful Parenting doesn't work for me at all. DS doesn't know when to stop. Any joining in with silliness just makes it worse. It's frustrating because I really thought if you're consistent most of the time you can relax and be silly sometimes, but no I have to be joyless and boring about any issue which might one day be important, or have it completely unmanageable when it is important. Perhaps he's just too young for that approach to work with him, though.

just skim read...

Ideas off the top of my head... If raging so much they are not listening don't talk.... then don't talk it is pointless.

Set rules explain what they are. sit on step go to your room to calm down.

Agree with Previous poster set time to so homework..with bonus like tv, game if homework finished withing ... time.

Make sure threats are carried through.

I did have problems with my DS hitting me..It turned out I realised there was a pattern it was after a holiday and so he was angry at me for sending him away to school. I found reassuring him I thought of him while at school, pointing out it was the law that made me send him and a few notes in packed lunch all helped.

I also over school holidays did a reward..He would start with £1 and any behaviours that weren't acceptable lost 10p. It was quite enlightening to me how much control he then took over his emotions.

How is her behaviour in school? because if it is good although I personally think they need to be able to vent a little they do have control.

As for not allowing your child to behave that way. It is simple to say when your child is listening and completely unsupportive.

Oh god, have only read your OP so far, but I could write this word for word about my own dd, who's recently turned 5. Will read the rest of the thread now..

Davsmum, Would you like to tell us exactly what steps you take to achieve this "not allowing" business. Seriously. Break it down into bullet points for the idiots amongst us.
If you really think you have discovered the secret rather than just having an unusually compliant child you should write a definitive guide to telling your children what to do and having them listen.
I'll buy it. In fact; I'll buy a copy for everyone on this thread. And if it doesn't work; I'll know you're just flying by the seat of your pants like the rest of us but happily imagining you're in control.

Very interesting what Davsmum has said. My older ds has autism and we have done ABA therapy with him for four years, a behavioural analysis approach which is based on exactly the principles Davsmum says (ignoring tantrums, consistency, taking control, reinforcing appropriate behaviour etc etc etc) but to the nth degree. We use this as our general way of parenting with both dc. Worked absolute bloody miracles with autistic ds but nt dd? No

It is not always as simple as "don't allow them".

Like you OP, my dd has a rage-switch which can turn on at the drop of a hat. Taking her to her room is not an option now as she'll kick and scream (which is ignorable) and throw things, I'm actually worried she'll really damage something or hurt herself.

We're still going with our ignoring the bad/reinforcing the good method, but it can get worse before it gets better (in behavioural analysis this is called an extinction burst - when you target a behaviour, it increases in frequency before it is extinguished).

Some really useful other posts here from Bertie and aplaceinwinter. I've also heard good things about the How to Talk book.

Anyway nothing useful from me sorry, except solidarity!

Have you thought about a parenting course? We had similar problems (though not hitting so much) with our ds and felt our parenting had become overly negative but we were unsure how to remedy it. The course really helped, it was a Incredible Years course and took 18w ircc. There is a book but to be honest it was quite dense and we needed the course to properly implement the ideas.

It has really worked for us, both in helping us help our son control his emotions and temper and helping us to engage with him positively and control our own negative responses. For instance, some of the acting up was coming from tiredness (which we knew) but explicitly acknowledging that tiredness (or whatever is the cause of the upset)seemed to give him an explanation for his feelings and heads off the tantrum. It was also striking to him how much is sparked off by my own response to him (I have a shorter temper than my dh) and if I can can just hold it together a bit longer, often again, I manage to head off the tantrum.

Star charts were also great for validating good behaviour.

We cultivated the habit of praising ALL good behaviour, no matter how minor.

Hitting by the way = exclusion here. Out to the stairs and if won't stay on the stairs they are put up to their room. And yes, we kept putting them back until they stayed. It took persistence and a certain amount of bloody mindedness. I am sure that would be harder to implement now with an older child but it probably is possible if you persist enough. Need to pick a time when you have a few hours to spare though.

I hope that helps, it is awful to feel a situation is spiraling on you.