6-year-old out of control

[snottagecheese]

DD is a bright, funny, confident little girl who is also, at times, a complete nightmare. I know this isn't unusual, but increasingly I worry about the extent and frequency of her tantrums, and just don't know what to do.

This morning's episode began when she said 'I wish I could watch something before school' and I said 'Sorry honey, no, you know we never watch TV before school as there's not enough time.' So it's not as though I was saying no to something she usually has, and she must have known what my answer would be. This was followed initially by stropping, calling her brother names, refusing to get dressed, etc, and escalated to stomping off, shouting, hitting, then screaming. I asked her to stop, then eventually if there was something else wrong, what I could do to cheer her up, etc. All to no avail, it simply increased her rage. This follows last night's epic rage-fest which at least had a more understandable trigger - her homework, which she can easily do but just didn't want to, and she became crosser and stroppier, then physically violent - pushing and hitting me. At that point I'm afraid I grabbed her arm and shook her quite hard, which I am absolutely not proud of. I don't hit her but I do occasionally find myself shaking her - not making excuses but I can remain calm through all the shouting, screaming, rude and unkind comments, slamming doors, throwing things at me - but occasionally, and it's not every time by any means, when she physically attacks me I find myself retaliating. She is tall for her age, and strong, and when she hits me or punches me it actually hurts. (For those who are thinking 'Don't try and do homework with a 6-year-old in the evening' - you're right, but she has reacted the same way when we've done it on a Sunday morning, so the time of day isn't really the problem.)

Anyway, I just don't know what to do (a) about the tantrums (b) about her physical attacks and (c) about making sure I never grab her or shake her myself. I'm well aware that I can't very well tell her she must never hit, kick, punch, etc me if I grab her back. But the triggers are so unpredictable or seem so ridiculously minor - or often there doesn't even seem to be one at all, she just switches from sweet and gentle to furious and violent. She's happy at school as far as I know, occasionally a bit jealous of her younger brother who is, unfortunately for her, at optimum cute age (just about to turn 2), but while that isn't entirely irrelevant, it is in no way the whole story - she has always been like this, easily angered, raging and furious over the smallest things. We used to think it was just the terrible twos, threes, fours... but it's clearly part of her personality and as well as finding it very hard to cope with, I also wish we could help her to manage her anger, because it can't be very good for her or make her feel good about herself.

I should add that much of the time she is lovely - kind, sweet, funny, clever, and overall I think both I and DH have a good relationship with her. We are also conscious of praising the good whenever we can and telling her we're proud of her (re school, her brilliant drawings, playing nicely with her brother, calm days, the way she's kind to others, etc etc). There are lots of cuddles and giggles and I love yous from both sides... but it's just this temper. I genuinely fear for the future when she is 14 (or 13, or 15, 16, etc) and taller and stronger than me (I am 5'2" and she is going to be tall like her dad - she's already nearly up to my shoulder). Will she still be thumping me? And she'll be storming out of the house and I won't be able to stop her... At the moment all I can see is things escalating as she grows, and I don't know what to do...

And what if they don't give a shiny shit about consequences? When they're in a rage they won't. And the threat of a consequence won't help them calm down the next time the red mist descends.

Good luck carrying a tall, raging six year old to school....

Honestly, Davsmum there are some issues that kids have that aren't caused by wishy washy parenting. Really. Some kids really, genuinely struggle with their temper and no amount of 'I won't stand for this', 'There will be consequences' will help them get their temper under control.

This thread reminds me once of a poster who put a thread up on another parenting site telling us all how to deal with our non-sleeping babies. It was full of very obvious advice that would work with your average baby i.e. bath-bottle-bed, routine, keeping noise and stimulation down in the evening etc etc. It was laughable for those of us who had babies with very serious sleep issues. We'd tried all the obvious just as I suspect the OP has here.

I sympathise totally OP, my DD of the same age is very similar. Lots of good advice especially from lovely Bertie as ever.

DD's problem to some extent is that she is a lot like me - she will feel angry or whatever but won't always know why. So she will seem to go into a rage for no reason but often there is an underlying cause behind it that we have to worm out . For me the How to Talk book, used absolutely to the letter, is really helpful in this. Often behind the rage is a feeling of not being in control, so giving her a modicum of control helps too. (But this is tricky as I don't want to give her an inch and she takes a mile, so I can't use it as often as I might want to.)

When she is mid-rage and hitting, I'm afraid I usually go for warning+time out. She needs dragging and screaming to timeout and she needs to be shut in but it is a good tool to calm her down.

So as others have mentioned when she said "I wish I could watch something before school" I would have very basically just repeated "you wish you could watch something before school" and just waited... and then if no reply would say something like "sometimes it's hard to get ready in the mornings, isn't it?" and then go on from there.

Like you too I do wonder what will happen if she still has rages when she is a teenager - but I think (hope) that as she grows she will get more emotionally mature and in control, and that will help her (and me!) cope better.

And what if they don't give a shiny shit about consequences? When they're in a rage they won't. And the threat of a consequence won't help them calm down the next time the red mist descends

They may not give a shit at the time,..eventually with consequences and consistency - they will - It is not something that magically changes in one instant or overnight. It takes patience and lots of time. Chopping and changing strategies before they have a chance to work doesn't help.

123 Magic is your friend :)

Sorry davsmum- I cannot carry my 6yo when he is kicking, he is almost as strong as I am. He does not care at all about consequences of any sort.

You have my sympathy. I have a 5YO who sounds very similar. i find it very difficult when other parents and teachers assume that a firm voice, consistent rules and consequences can over time bring this sort of behaviour under control. I thought I had parenting sussed with my first three DSs.

My 4th has taught me humility and not to assume it was me that made a difference. My parenting hasn't changed but feck me I still haven't found a way of finding an intervention that works for him. He is awesome, kind, clever, bright but as stubborn as a mule and will carry on for hours and we never capitulate. We ignore. We give consequences but that boy seems never to give a fuck.

I may have found a chink in his armour - he doesn't want others to feel upset as a result of his actions so we're trying consequences on others at the moment.

I find it is a lot worse when he's hungry or leaving to go to school.

I guess I'm saying you're not alone and I get what you're saying.

You guys are awesome, thank you. So much interesting and useful advice and recommendations - DH bought How to Talk... this afternoon (he works for a publisher and is in bookshops all day - useful!) so we'll be studying that intensely over the next few days...

I've had a look at some of the conditions mentioned and think they're probably not what's underlying this (DD ticks a couple of boxes for PDA, for example, but luckily for us - and her - there are lots of other aspects that don't feature in her behaviour).

What's been especially brilliant, though, is to hear from other people in the same boat - honestly, this morning I just felt like what am I doing wrong? (and then DavsMum came along and told me, yay ). It's hard when you don't know anyone in RL whose children's behaviour is so extreme (not that they'll admit to, anyway) - it's isolating, but I feel much better knowing that others are struggling with the same problem (well, I'd rather none of us were struggling but you know what I mean!).

So we'll try to implement some strategies once we've had a look at the book... In the meantime, I am aiming for CALM (from myself, to start with!) and to distract/divert where possible and not participate in the tantrum but discuss the behaviour after when she's calm. I also think the idea of fixed reduction of screen time and/or pocket money is good (we've done this before but it has been more off the cuff, partly as she doesn't have a fixed allocation of either - some days (i.e. the weekend) she watches an hour of TV, other days (more often that not) nothing at all). I think in a calm moment we'll discuss this and write down and pin up some rules which she and we can see and refer to. Am off to look at other suggestions you've all made, too, to see what else might be directly useful for us. Thank you. You've made my day end much better than it began.

I am new to this discussion after looking for advice on MY 6 year old...it sounds as if we have very similar children.

I, too, have tried many things, for long consistent spells, and I too have an 'easy' second child, and a committed partner, and a decent teacher/school situation, and am a present, conscious parent. It seems as though my son is just more challenging than the average child.

The most difficult part is being hit, kicked, headbutted, bitten, etc. I am always rattled by this, and then upset afterwards. Almost like a bad emotional hangover.

I think that my worry about the future clouds my reactions to him. I watch him like a hawk and am harder on him than my other child because I am so worried that he will always be this way, and that I will have an abusive teenager to deal with. This means I am quicker to discipline him and less able to be lighthearted and enjoy him the way I can with my other child. I am aware that this becomes a self-perpetuating cycle.

If anyone can share success stories about their aggressive-child-who-went-on-to turn-out-okay, please do. It would help me a lot!

The book "The Spirited Child" off era good insight into the psychology of high demand / highly intense children.

I would talk to her when she's calm and explain how you feel and how much it is hurting you. Try to teach her some strategies to help with her anger- explain that we all get angry at times. Suggest counting to 10 or going somewhere quiet etc. Even doing some star jumps to burn it off! You def don't want to be shaking her though- that's you showing her that your anger is also dealt with physically.

I'm so relieved to read your posts.... I've just put my kids to bed after an utterly draining run in with DS1 who's 4. He brought today's party bag up to his room to keep in his cupboard. Fine, I said, but let me just check what's inside to make sure it's ok (he knows no sweets allowed upstairs). And lo and behold, what did I find.... Well the sh*t utterly hit the fan when I said the bag needed to go downstairs after breach of trust (I didn't use those words obvs): he whacked me on the face, hurled abuse at me and kept hitting and hitting...
He did sit for his 4 mins timeout and it did all de-escalate. But it saddens me that our situation is getting worse in many ways (started at 18mo) more violence and now verbal abuse. He lashes out at his 3yo sister daily, always unprovoked and calls her 'stupid'. He's petulant, angry, resentful and sulky a good 40% of his time at home. And he gets lots of love, cuddles, one to one time, exercise, healthy diet, a perfect routine, sleep...
Forgive me for hijacking your post OP. I did want to empathise with you. Not the best of Sat nights here. Have you looked at the book, 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child? Some good tips in there. And the author does stress that many kids simply don't respond to classic parenting /disciplining measures as they massively lack empathy and EQ.

Jesus wept. These kids are 6. What the hell do 6 year olds have to be "raging" about? They go to school, they play with their friends, they colour stuff in, they play games, and yet they're all "raging"? About what?! The state of the ozone layer? The fiscal debt? Come off it; this is the result of formative years full of namby-pamby parenting. Have a bit more control and perhaps it won't happen in the first place!

It is not helpful to call someone's parenting "namby pamby", when none of us know everything about every unique child and living situation the family find themselves in. Us parents need to be open to and respectful of each other's unique situations.
I have 4 children and only one had horrible rages when he didn't have his way. And as a toddler he rattled the cot so much and so many times it ended up splitting. He is generally OK as a fourteen year old but we have learnt that he has a much lower emotional IQ than average, and we had to teach him empathy at times, whee our others just were empathetic. he is doing well in his schooling, loving playing the piano and football but still occasionally lashes out and is still a work in progress
While it is true calm, kind,and consistently firm parenting always wins over inconsistent angry, reactionary or under confident parenting, never underestimate the other little person in the parent child relationship.

It is about how the personality of the parent comes together with the personality of the child to work together through the child's developmental stages.

The person who started this thread has been honest about their own part in this, and that takes courage. I too, became very angry with my son when he was four and became so angry I had to stay away from him as I was scared of what I might do. It is really really hard to deal with the kind of rages these kids seem to have, but don't despair, it does get better and hey do slowwwwly grow towards being a gentler, more empathetic person. How we behave is far more powerful than we imagine, so you are right to seek help to stop reacting with anger or shaking. You can only teach these type of kids once they have calmed down as their anger spirals out of control so much they are unable to take anything sensible in. Basically, they need your help to calm down,and that is first priority. This does not happen overnight, but they can gradually learn better control of their anger, with your stoic and loving help. It is far easier to teach appropriate behaviour after the raging child has been calm for around 20-30minutes. Simple explanations of "what would be a better way to deal with how you were feeling" etc will help them see you are not giving up on them learning better emotional control.

By the way lifesrich being harder on him is also how my husband reacted to my child's hideous rages but this ended up making his anger escalate to the point of him trying to smash windows with toys and other shitty things I'd rather forget. I guess we kept focusing on it being his behaviour that was wrong, not him as a person that was flawed, and not reacting with anger as much as possible,nor holding on to resentment towards him for his outbursts. Kids can really feel it if you believe in them. We had to go back to really making him know we both were believing in him to rise to change his behaviour for the better, despite the fact that he as a loooooong way off that at the time. Sometimes I would say "I know that you can behave much better than this. i beleive in you" And you are right OP that diversion really works to de-escalate rising anger as well as having a sense of humour. For us having a sense of humour is probably what has saved us. My now 14 year old son has a sense of the ridiculous, and cracks silly jokes to make me laugh, getting me to watch stupid U TUBE skits or songs that make him giggle. I guess what I'm saying is you need to have a loving, fond connection with your child, despite his really crappy lack of empathy and shit behaviour at times.. Because my child's awful rages did in the past cause me to despair of him as a person and to build resentment towards him. I had to go back to the basics to respect him for where he was with his emotional development,. i am not saying my son is by any means out of he woods, but we both respect each other and he is by no means "an abusive teenager" but we do keep pushing for him to not be a teenager who behaves rudely or inappropriately, ifykwim. For us, showing him that we are reasonable and can sit down and make a plan for him to work towards having his favourite things (used to be pokemonn cards, now Nike football boots) has also helped. He lacks insight at times so we walk him through what is happening and what would be more appropriate way to deal with it (sometimes many times )

Thanks Midsumma you have certainly made me feel positive today!

jemimapuddleduck, you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. You're one of those parents who thinks if their child eats/sleeps/behaves well then it's all down to YOUR wonderful parenting, aren't you? Well done you! Keep it up!

And thank you Midsumma, you have also helped me feel much better today. I only noticed this post had been revived by accident, but after an appalling morning where I was literally shaking with rage (but managed to control it) at the gigantic screaming tantrum DD had because she didn't have the right clean tights to wear this morning, your words have helped, as have others who've been on here in the past week or so. I hope everyone has had a calmer day than I have so far! lifesrichpageantry - 'emotional hangover' is absolutely right. I feel awful, tearful and empty right now. It'll be fine tomorrow, but it's almost like being ill; your body has to gradually process all the emotion out of itself.

It's relieving to read some of the stories on here. Dd1 is 5 and for the most time, is a lovey little girl who is just a joy......but when the red most descends, turns into something very ugly and scary - hitting, screaming (oh the screaming!) trying to spit, kicking, slamming doors, "I hate you - your the worst mum ever". Horrific.

The smallest thing can set her off, and unfortunately, I don't handle it that well sometimes but I'm going to keep this thread and refer back to it for advice, and get that book. A lot of it I think is down to age - p1 at school seems to bring out attitudes and over confidences that need to be tempered sometimes and I hope like us all, that she grows out of this.

To Davsmum and JeminaPuddleDuck -sheesh

Sorry davsmum but you are really starting to get on my nerves now!!

To all mums with children with angelic cherub faces but unfortunately nasty tempers I raise my glass of gin and tonic to you all for hanging in there

If it makes you feel any better my nerves have been shot to pieces and I have only just held onto my sanity too many bloody times to count also!!

Just plough on guys, teaching them how to be lovable and kind humans, as they grow towards taking over where we leave off one day....
Meantime,one thing I will keep on about with my kids is to always wash their own plate,bowl,cups and utensils and bloody well dry them and put them away after every meal.....and guess what, my 14 and 15 year old boys are now actually washing their own clothes (with reminders to get their act together once a week, or have no clean clothes!!) OK, so it is me who rips the clothes off the line when it rains and get them dry, but Hey they are putting their own clothes away after I threaten to remove computer game priviledges (albeit they are kinda stuffing them into a cupboard instead of nicely folding or hanging them)! xx

Just joined Mums net in need of some help and I can soooooo relate to this post. I have twin girls, non identical, one is exactly as you describe your dd, the other generally compliant and happy to do as I ask most of the time. How can the behaviour be so different when I parent them the same?!

I love 'How to talk to Kids...' too and you have reminded me to read it again. I am at my wits end with how to lovingly discipline one dd, whilst understanding all her anxieties and trying to be fair to both dd's. Some one mentioned about bad with change, scratchy labels and anxiety and that describes my more 'spirited' dd too. Thank you all for the reassurance that I am not alone.

I will explore some of the therapy ideas the thread suggests. Like you for the most part my dd's are charming, delightful funny and loving, then all of a sudden one sees red. Having had two, at the same time, the same sex, the same conditions, I know that the more usual techniques work with one and not the other. Hope that is reassuring for some. Good luck all with similar situations. I will keep watching this space.

No idea if this helps, but I find the period after school to be a real problem with DD (5) - she'll be hyper and tired at the same time, which is never restful. I found the 'playful parenting' exhausting, the 'how to talk' had mixed results (in our case it took some of the tension off but worsened the dithering) and being super-strict just resulted in a standoff.

What helped give her some structure was my planning things in advance - "OK, when we get home we're going to read that book you wanted to take a look at, then you'll have x time to do your homework, and after that we can either go to the park or the library". So thing that DD wants then necessary thing then limited choice worked well for us.

ah, lots of similar problems here. 2 dc's who don't give the shiniest shit about consequences, toys have been lost and no fucks given.

and I'm a totally lone parent with a job so I only have so much time to deal with the behaviour, getting to work and school on time comes first if we want a roof over our head.

123 magic was ignored and every reward chart has been ripped up.