6-year-old out of control

[snottagecheese]

DD is a bright, funny, confident little girl who is also, at times, a complete nightmare. I know this isn't unusual, but increasingly I worry about the extent and frequency of her tantrums, and just don't know what to do.

This morning's episode began when she said 'I wish I could watch something before school' and I said 'Sorry honey, no, you know we never watch TV before school as there's not enough time.' So it's not as though I was saying no to something she usually has, and she must have known what my answer would be. This was followed initially by stropping, calling her brother names, refusing to get dressed, etc, and escalated to stomping off, shouting, hitting, then screaming. I asked her to stop, then eventually if there was something else wrong, what I could do to cheer her up, etc. All to no avail, it simply increased her rage. This follows last night's epic rage-fest which at least had a more understandable trigger - her homework, which she can easily do but just didn't want to, and she became crosser and stroppier, then physically violent - pushing and hitting me. At that point I'm afraid I grabbed her arm and shook her quite hard, which I am absolutely not proud of. I don't hit her but I do occasionally find myself shaking her - not making excuses but I can remain calm through all the shouting, screaming, rude and unkind comments, slamming doors, throwing things at me - but occasionally, and it's not every time by any means, when she physically attacks me I find myself retaliating. She is tall for her age, and strong, and when she hits me or punches me it actually hurts. (For those who are thinking 'Don't try and do homework with a 6-year-old in the evening' - you're right, but she has reacted the same way when we've done it on a Sunday morning, so the time of day isn't really the problem.)

Anyway, I just don't know what to do (a) about the tantrums (b) about her physical attacks and (c) about making sure I never grab her or shake her myself. I'm well aware that I can't very well tell her she must never hit, kick, punch, etc me if I grab her back. But the triggers are so unpredictable or seem so ridiculously minor - or often there doesn't even seem to be one at all, she just switches from sweet and gentle to furious and violent. She's happy at school as far as I know, occasionally a bit jealous of her younger brother who is, unfortunately for her, at optimum cute age (just about to turn 2), but while that isn't entirely irrelevant, it is in no way the whole story - she has always been like this, easily angered, raging and furious over the smallest things. We used to think it was just the terrible twos, threes, fours... but it's clearly part of her personality and as well as finding it very hard to cope with, I also wish we could help her to manage her anger, because it can't be very good for her or make her feel good about herself.

I should add that much of the time she is lovely - kind, sweet, funny, clever, and overall I think both I and DH have a good relationship with her. We are also conscious of praising the good whenever we can and telling her we're proud of her (re school, her brilliant drawings, playing nicely with her brother, calm days, the way she's kind to others, etc etc). There are lots of cuddles and giggles and I love yous from both sides... but it's just this temper. I genuinely fear for the future when she is 14 (or 13, or 15, 16, etc) and taller and stronger than me (I am 5'2" and she is going to be tall like her dad - she's already nearly up to my shoulder). Will she still be thumping me? And she'll be storming out of the house and I won't be able to stop her... At the moment all I can see is things escalating as she grows, and I don't know what to do...

"If you mean what you say and impose consequences in a consistent way then you are not 'allowing' them to behave in a certain way."

Yes but when they continue the behaviour despite receiving consequences for it?

Agreed DH is calmer and firmer than me. Agreed I am not naturally firm or authoritative - it's something I've had to work at. But even DH gets shaken by it, and when the firm voice doesn't work - then you're lost. You have to fall back on something. Threaten/announce sanction (this is very negative but I assume what a naturally firm/authoritative person would do if firm calm voice did not get results). Then what if child does not fold? The only option is to get stricter/harsher, until either the parent loses it and does something they regret or the punishments get more and more severe until they are basically abusive.

The idea that being calm and authoritative is enough is lovely, and I'm sure it does work with some children. But others it doesn't. I don't see why that's hard to understand they are all different after all.

Amazing how you assume, when you disagree - that you are considered to be an idiot.
There is no secret. Its just common sense. You can choose to get caught up in lots of theories and types of parenting methods that complicate everything, or you can apply basic bog standard logic.
My children were not 'compliant' in the way you so sarcastically suggest. They are intelligent and strong minded,..but they knew I meant what I said and that they achieved nothing by having a tantrum.

So long as you show lots of love and praise good behaviour, a child is not traumatised when you take control of a situation they cannot.
If you get all worried because a child is 'upset' about not getting what they want then you are never going to resolve anything.
I don't understand why you would need a guide to telling a child what is required and then following through.

Oh wow, just stopped work for lunch and only had time to skim-read so far but you lot are amazing. Thank you! Will read properly and post more this evening. I'm so reassured to hear others are in the same boat. And Davsmum I'm sorry I reacted strongly - you make some really interesting points but I do find it hard to accept that you don't seem to accept that kids can be very different (like adults!) and that it's not necessarily as simple as applying one approach and if it doesn't work then you're somehow failing.

Because, Davs, what do you do when they still don't do it? You can't force a child to do something when they are a person with their own will. Yes you can make their life miserable until they do it (isn't that known as bullying in other contexts though??) - some children still won't bow down.

I suppose I don't ever have to worry that DS will be led on or trodden down in life at least

Davsmum - in response to your last comment: because with some children, you can tell them what is required, and follow through with any consequences if they don't comply, until you're blue in the face - it just simply might not work. In the heat of a tantrum, my DD doesn't give a monkey's about consequences (she might later, once she's calmed down, but by then it's too late).

And honestly... you don't understand why some parents might find books about children's behaviour helpful? Have you seen how big the market is for parenting books? Are we all just completely useless, then? You seem pretty clued up in many ways - surely you can't be that blinkered?!

snottagecheese I DO accept children can be different! I apologise if the WAY I explain comes across as blunt, I am not able to explain it in a way that may be preferred.
If you think about a class of children - THEY are all different. The Teacher could not cope if she/he had to use different methods for each child.
The main issue is our intention,..our consistency and always saying what we mean.
I had to learn what I do, like everyone else does.

I really sympathise OP. A couple of quick questions -

How much sleep is your DD getting a night (actual sleep, not when she goes to bed)?

How many after school activities, etc does your DD do?

Tantrums can be children's way of expressing that they're 'overloaded' - could your DD be just tired out?

Do you know what? I would never allow that sort of behaviour from my children.....until I had one that behaved like that. Sometimes it is the child, not the parent.

I'm am often horrified at my dds behaviour, but I can't always stop it. That sort of glib comment was so easy when I had an easy ds. But dd is the Tazmanian devil, and her behaviour is sometimes almost I impossible to control. I have every sympathy with you

A firm voice does work if used in a calm and consistent way. FGS

Sometimes it is the child, not the parent

I agree Oranges If I only had DD2 I would be a totally smug mother. I should be thanking DD1 and DD3 really for showing me that normal parenting strategies don't work with all children.

Oh my goodness. There are so many things that I 'don't allow' from my younger two. That I deal with consistently and firmly. I am adept at ignoring huge, screaming, raging tantrums. An expert even. However, they still do things that they aren't allowed to do.

OP, your DD sounds a lot like my 8 year old son has been. Big explosive rages. No way of physically manhandling him into his room unless I want to risk seriously hurting him or me as he flails around on the stairs. Nothing really worked. A gentle approach of encouraging him to tell me what the issue was or to work out his anger in a positive way wasn't really effective. A zero tolerance this is absolutely unacceptable and you will get out of my sight until you can control yourself approach was a disaster. And I tried these approaches consistently over many months, I wasn't switching from one to the other.

Things that did help: firstly, he mostly just grew out of them. Last year he got significantly better and rages were one a week rather than one a day. This year he's been brilliant. Rages are very rare now. His big sister is very 'emotionally intelligent' and always has been; she's great at telling you how she feels at any given time. DS has never been much of one for that kind of communication. Hence the rages I think. The older he's got, the more he is able to talk about his feelings and divert some of the rage himself.

It also helped to talk about the tantrums/rages at a time when he was calm. I sympathised with him. Told him I understood how horrible it must be to lose it like that and how difficult to get it under control. I made it clear that I would help him calm down if he could feel the anger building but if he chose not to come to me for help or try help I was offering and his temper resulted in people or property getting hurt then there would be consequences.

I also became a bit better at intercepting them; being hungry or tired were big triggers. He also just needed to be left well alone when the storm was brewing, and after school. I leave him completely alone after school!

A classroom is a totally different environment to at home and teachers have a different relationship than a parent does. It's not comparable at all.

Because, Davs, what do you do when they still don't do it? You can't force a child to do something when they are a person with their own will. Yes you can make their life miserable until they do it (isn't that known as bullying in other contexts though??) - some children still won't bow down.

Don't do what? It is not about forcing' a child or making their life miserable. You don't give in just because a child has its 'own will' If what the child wants is reasonable - let them have it!! If not - don't give in. I have yet to meet a child whose will is stronger than mine,..but it is not about that! I would never expect a child to 'bow down' What I would ask and expect is reasonable not somehting awful!

And honestly... you don't understand why some parents might find books about children's behaviour helpful?

I never said that,..I was responding to someone who said I should make bullet points or write a book and I said I did not understand why anyone would need me to write down the stuff I was saying! I read lots of books!

Orangeanddemons

"Do you know what? I would never allow that sort of behaviour from my children.....until I had one that behaved like that."

Amen to that.

The classroom example is an interesting one though - it assumes that teachers successfully manage the behaviour of all children using their single approach. That consistency wins the day. It certainly didn't with my DS. I am convinced that the teacher he has had this year has really helped with his temper - they hit it off big time and she works really well with him. Last year's teacher was lovely but she didn't seem to bring out the best in DS in the same way. Why would a parent deliberately continue to use an approach that clearly brings out the worst in their child and doesn't work just to be 'consistent'?! I can see why a teacher would need to do this but we don't have to!

But Davsmum, the OP didn't allow the child to have her own way did she? She didn't put the TV on and yet the tantrum escalated. So what would you have done then?!

Sadly, Teachers have to deal with children whose parents have been unable to deal with their behaviour.
My friend is a teacher and she complains that she spends too much time dealing with behaviour problems and gets very little cooperation from some parents.

I'm not talking about saying no, I'm talking about when you need them to do something. Something perfectly reasonable like stay quietly in their room past bedtime, not scream horrible things at their parent/sibling, get into a bath or shower, leave the house in good time to reach school, not run around shouting indoors, complete homework.

It's perfectly easy to not let them have a physical thing, not so easy to get them to do something (or stop doing something) that they don't want to do.

But Davsmum, the OP didn't allow the child to have her own way did she? She didn't put the TV on and yet the tantrum escalated. So what would you have done then?!

I think it escalated because the OP was hesitant and tried to 'cheer her up'

I would have ignored the tantrum.

OP -one thing I noticed was your immediate response

'I wish I could watch something before school' and I said 'Sorry honey, no, you know we never watch TV before school as there's not enough time.'

This is a no and is a potential trigger for her consequent behaviour. I work with kids with behavioural problems and if a teacher responded like this they may also be on the arse end of a violent tantrum. My approach is never to say no, but to agree with them with an explanation and make it into comedy to take the heat out of the situation

'I wish I could watch something before school'
'Yes, me too - shame that we never have the time! What would you like to watch if we had any spare time darling? Come and tell me whilst we brush your hair/get dressed? I'd like to watch QI - it's my favourite. I love the [blah blah blah]'

The aim is to de-escalate/divert/empathise at all times. So that you don't get the kick off in the first place.

Bertie yy I find Playful Parenting more difficult to implement than 'How to Talk'. Quite often I think there's probably a 'Playful Parenting' technique to deal with whatever situation I'm in but there's no way I can remember it or work out what it is!

Where I do use Playful Parenting sometimes is getting washed in the mornings either by seeing how quickly he can get washed or having a little bit of a water fight. The other flashpoint where I sometimes use it, is homework again either by having a timer to see how quickly we can finish it (but it still has to be neat!) or using little toys or sweets as counters for maths homework.

I also agree with the pp about after-school activities. We stopped them for a few terms as DS was just too tired.

DeliciousMonster Totally agree. A proper reason is a better than a NO

Erm, Davsmum, I did give a proper reason! If you read my OP, I said because there isn't time on school mornings; I certainly didn't just say NO (on reflection, I'm not even sure I used the word 'no' at all; thinking back, I think I just said 'there isn't time on a school morning, honey, you know that').

DeliciousMonster - thank you for reminding me of the sympathise-and-divert tactic - that's something I've done in the past and need to resurrect because of course you're right, it does help.

Davsmum- how do you resolve the issue where a child is refusing to do something that is necessary (ie brush teeth, do homework, walk to school) and is tantrumming, hitting, punching?

snottagecheese - I didn't say you didn't! I was responding to Deliciousmonster saying a reason is better than a no - in general - not about you!

Medoc Seriously, I would be encouraging the child to do something that is necessary - and if they carried on tantruming/refusing then I would give a warning of consequences - The choice would be theirs but the consequence would be imposed.
As for walking to school,..I would bloody well carry them if I had to - but their would be consequences.