I have just said something unforgivable to my DC

[AnneWentworth]

I find DS3 challenging. He is 2, he will be 3 early in the new year.

He is spirited and loving and gives lovely hugs and talks all the time and is friendly, but he is really getting me down.

we have two other DSs who are almost 8 and 6. He gets into every single thing you could possibly imagine. We are childproofed (for the first time) then the other day I found him opening a window that even I need to stand on something to get to. I find it impossible to do anything when he is around me because either he is being lovely but attached to me or putting pencils in microwaves (outing myself) so you can't even trust him to go to the loo.

All of this I can just about manage, but he is beginning to have an effect on my relationship with my other DC and on my behaviour towards them.He won't even let me have a conversation with them, if I try to read a story he has to be the one on my lap, he decides when the story is over even if the other two want to hear it. If one is allowed their computer or iPad time he has to be involved and then just turns it off. He won't share anything, like the massive bowl of popcorn tonight. He won't let them watch what they want, he won't let them do their homework. He now won't go to bed without them - which was when we were able to do these things.

He shares a room with DS2, but this is recent, as the older two shared until recently. DS1 has a large bed and they all agreed to have a sleepover in his room tonight. DS3 insisted on a book and DS1 offered to read it. But, he wouldn't let DS2 look at it. Then he kept messing about with the pages, then he took the book and refused to let DS1 finish reading it (he had got into it). DS1 then said he either gave the book back or had to sleep in his own bed. FOr too long we have given into him because he is little/learning etc. DS1 had an outburst where he declared we always make him give everything to his brother - and e is right. I removed DS3 from the bed (with the bloody book) and he was happy in the bunk bed in his own room for a while and I had a chate with DS1 and DS2. DS1 mostly sulked and didnt want to talk and was visiibly upset.

DS3 then came back and insisted he be allowed to sleep in the middle of the bed where DS2 was lying. He was screaming and screaming (he always screams when he wants something) and I shouted at DS2 to let him sleep there and shouted that I was at the end of my tether and that one day soon I was going to walk out of the door and never come back. I was crying like a bloody idiot. DS2 immediately moved, gave me a big hug but was sobbing on my shoulder. I immediately told him and DS1 (as well as DS3 who wasnt listening at all btu just happy he got the spot he wanted), that I was just upset and tired and that of course I would never ever leave them and I loved them all very much.

I just feel so shit. And I have made me kids feel even shitter before bed. I dread my days off with DS3 and where I might get stressed. I feel like I am constantly shouting at the other two almost more that DS3.

He doesnt respond to any kind of sanction or bribery.

Don't beat yourself up, tomorrow is another day. Give them lots of hugs tomorrow and all will be forgotten.

Fwiw I would start setting boundaries for ds3 or he will continue to rule the roost. You are the boss so stand firm. Your other dcs will appreciate this even though it will be hard in the short term.

What you said wasn't that awful, my sweet. I doubt there's a mother who hasn't shrieked something similar! They will know perfectly well that you don't mean it - just have anothet gentle chat with older two DSes tomorrow and reiterate that you'll never leave. They'll be right as rain.

It does sound, though, that you need to address DS3'sbehaviour now, for all of your sakes. But you say that in your post. When he screams, don't give in. Bloody difficult I know. Do you have a DP?

I think we've all said stuff like that at one time or other.

Tomorrow is another day. Sleep well, get some rest. Big hugs.

When we say things in temper we mean it to hurt, it doesn't mean that what you said was true.

Yes I have DH. He doesn't have the same problems as he is shouty and strict, although he also finds DS3 hard work. All GPs etc as well.

We live in a flat with very thin walls and I am paranoid about the neighbours, not so much about them judging but about them complaining about the noise.

Nothing seems to work, I ignore him and it goes on for u to 30 mins, he throws himself at me. I hold him to comfort but don't respond and it goes on less but still continues. He shouts. He asks for cereal then refuses it, then asks for toast then won't eat it. He climbs all of the cupboards and takes things out. He won't stay on time out, won't listen if I try to reason and explain etc, I am ashamed to stay I have even smacked him, I shout a lot but I know that isn't helpful but I just get to the end of my tether.

I know I need to address the behaviour but I just don't know what to do anymore.

I think I would start by seeing your HV for an outside opinion and some strategies to cope.

It sounds to me like JackandJilly has a very good point - there is no point saying no and then capitulating as he learns that if he perseveres he will get his own way. But that is much easier for me to say from behind a computer screen.

But everyone has a point at which they snap and I'm sure that most parents have said or done something that they regret. It's a normal part of parenting.

I can sympathise with you so much. We have had such difficulty with DS, who is 3 years younger than DD. Never had any trouble at all with DD, she is an angel, so we were totally unprepared for the overwhelming force that is DS. He is a phenomenal child, fascinating, very bright, affectionate and I adore him more than I can put into words but he has driven us to the brink so many times. I have said things to him that I will regret for the rest of my life. I can't offer you a magic solution, except to say that you are not the only one, even if you feel as if you are. I have convinced myself that I am the only mother who has ever said spiteful things to her child, but there are at least 2 of us now!
I don't think you have mentioned their father - if he is around, does he feel the same way as you? DH and I have been affected equally over the years but haven't agreed on how to tackle it, which causes huge problems between us. Also knock-on effect on DD is very distressing; like your older boys she says we treat him differently, and she's right, we were so desperate not to set him off we gave in. DS has played on that of course.
Sometimes the hardest thing for me was trying to talk to friends about it and they sympathise and say their DCs were a nightmare last night too..... But they just couldn't fully understand the strength of my suffering.
Do you have a supportive health visitor? Mine was very helpful, even just having someone to talk and cry to. Or GP? I did have PND and difficulties with DS made me feel the same all over again. What about family? Mine just seemed to think we needed to be stricter with him but I never felt that was the solution for a child who seemed so unhappy and angry. And as you say, no threats, sanctions, punishments EVER cut any ice with him.
You may notice I'm writing mainly in past tense. Things have improved as he has grown up (he is 7 now). That doesn't help you in the short term, sorry. I think / hope we gradually became firm with him, talked to him, reassured him constantly that we loved him, and we still do that. He is still an angry child at times, and still causes tension and tears, but I see now that he is a sensitive and often scared child who needs us but doesn't always know how to ask for it. He kicked off the other night, lashing out and raging - I managed to keep calm and asked him if he wanted me to leave him alone or stay and cuddle him. He threw things and raged, but also sobbed and sobbed, and was able to say that he wanted to me to do both. His suffering and confusion broke my heart (am crying now), but I talked about how complicated feelings can be, he hugged me tighter than I have ever known & we came through it. With hindsight I understand that the strength of my feelings and my sheer desperation were because I wanted to do anything to help him be 'happy' and I never seemed to be able to do that. That made me feel like a failure, which compounded my distress with the situation. I sometimes torture myself thinking about the long term damage I may have caused to both DCs but so far so good!
Sorry to ramble about myself without giving you any constructive help. Please remember you are a loving, caring mother to all your DSs, if you weren't you wouldn't feel bad about what you said and you wouldn't be reaching out for help. Thinking of you.

Disciplining children is so hard . I also ricochet from screeching to conciliation and back. It sounds as though he has a lovely nature but is....boisterous?

Talk to DH? You need a united front, that's for sure. Like tonight, to stop the screaming you shouted at other DS to let him into bed (no judgment, I prob would do the same) but as an impartial observer if this happens even a handful of times he will know if he pushes hard enough he'll get his way eventually. You must become.... Immovable. Make like a pillar.

Where is time out? You need to put him somewhere he can't get out from.

hello OP, your son sounds lovely, full of beans and hard work.
No words of wisdom except that some dc you need to be strict and persevere other dcs get it first telling.

As the mother of a very strong willed three year old third child I sympathise immensely. I also think you need to stop beating yourself up about past mistakes (what parents hasn't made plenty of those) and work out a strategy for the future. You really have to stop letting this kid have his own way all the time. So what if he screams for 30 minutes? Ignore him. No method of discipline/chastisement works immediately. You can't expect your other two kids to give in to him all the time. Your three year old's tears are the normal frustrated tears of a preschooler...I'd be more concerned by how upset your older kids are that they have to give everything to their brother.

What I find helps when my 3 year old is having her tantrums is to focus on keeping myself calm rather than her. Nothing calms her down when she gets going so I concentrate on keeping myself calm and immovable. Work out some strategies with your DP though and stick to them!

I don't see why when your DS1 had tried to set a totally reasonable boundary for DS3 (- read nicely or you have to sleep in your own bed) you undermined him. You'd removed DS3 (great) but with the prized book (not so great), then allowed him to come back in and dictate exactly what should happen again.

I know kids can be a nightmare and its hard to deal with them in the heat of the moment, but 3 is not a baby and he knows full well how to get the attention/treats etc - and is depriving your other sons of them when they sound like they're behaving well.

Can you set some basic ground rules for DS3 - set up a sticker chart or similar for him and give lots of praise for following the rules and good behaviour.

Set up times when its DS1/2/3 turn for attention/screen time/whatever. Write it on a chart and stick to it. If DS3 tries to butt in/spoil it for everyone then calmly say, 'No DS3 its DS1's turn now, your turn is x-y.' Try and ignore him and focus on the other DS, then (if and when he does give you or his brothers any peace then give him quick praise for this.

If he keeps kicking off during their turns then you could try saying 'its DS1's turn, if you aren't quiet (or whatever) then you'll lose 5 mins of your turn.'

You need to set boundaries and stick to them and he will find it hard and he will scream and tantrum because he wants to get it all his own way again, but you have to hold firm as its not fair on the others otherwise and he'll grow up to be a nightmare!).

Good luck.

Don't worry too much

I told 12 year old dd not to bother coming home from school the next day (on her birthday)

Dh still hasn't forgiven me but dd has

You need to create some firm, predictable boundaries for him. He has no idea where he stands and is pushing and pushing to try to get the reassurance children get from knowing they have reached the limit.

He needs you to teach him what is appropriate behaviour and what won't be tolerated. It's hard work and you have to be on it every second of every day.

Pick your battles but, once you have said something must happen or cannot happen, do not change your mind. He will only understand if the same thing happens every time he does something unacceptable. You will confuse him and set the process back however good you think the excuse is to give in. Just don't.

At first he will fight you tooth and nail at every turn and that is because so far he has been taught that screaming and tantruming gets people to do what he wants. he needs to learn that this no longer happens.

Use time out away from the other children, but with you, to give him a space to calm down. Don't allow him to stay with his brothers while he is being disruptive. If his brother starts reading a book, even if it's reading to him. and he messes about with it, take him away and leave his brother with the book. If he wants to sit or lie where one of his brothers is and has a perfect right to be, tell him no and allow him to scream all he wants. Do not get his brother to move for him.

Don't become a massive disciplinarian and control every move he makes. let some things go, but only things you haven't told him not to do. Be careful not to say no unless you are prepared to carry it through to the bitter end. Once you have said no you are committed and have to stick it out however long he is prepared to fight you.

Please, please get some decent boundaries in place now. I have a friend who didn't do it when her DS was a toddler and behaving like your DS. She now has an 11 year old who is in charge in her house. She cannot say no to him about anything for fear of him trashing the house, hurting his brother, etc. You do not want to end up in a similar position.

Once he has learned that there are boundaries and that they don't move, he will feel more secure and all of your family will be a lot happier.

Reallynearlyforty - thank you for sharing, that is helpful, as you say to know there are at least two if us.

DS2 was difficult for a long time, lying on the streets screaming etc. But, with him I could see it was all those things you mention about sadness, anger, not understanding etc. He still has moments but I can see it in his eyes that it is all insecurities. He improved drastically once he started school so part of me knows that DS3 will likely calm down, but with him I just don't see the vulnerability at all at any point. That's awful. It just constantly feels like he is doing it to get what he wants because he does get it, and because he is bored or something - he has no emotion attached to his outburst. E.g. He did the screaming and crying until he was given the book then shouted that it was his to his brother and stopped shouting.
Rootypig- time out is not actually anywhere specific but there is no where in this flat that he can't get out of. He is like bloody Houdini!

He is so lovely when he isn't being difficult. I am so worried about the othe two though. The 8 year old looked at me with such disappointment and anger this evening. Ds2 just wanted to comfort but DS1 just kept looking at me . He is so talented and lovely and studious and relaxed but all of this is bringing out a really suppressed angry side of him where he is withdrawing. He then in turn is nasty to DS2 who is caught in the middle.

Thank you. I know I need to set the boundaries. Tomorrow is a new day and I am going to get up in the morning with a positive attitude and get started. After giving them all some massive hugs.

I know this is more my problem than his since I am the adult here. I know I undermined DS1, I just couldn't listen to anymore screaming. It is terrible he really looked at me like he didn't recognise his mother and it made me fell sick.

I agree with asking for help from, eg, Health Visitor. You're at the end of your tether and no wonder.

I have one of these. At that age, no fear, not a care in the world for disapproval or consequences, climbed everything and threw himself off, ran away, wouldn't be reasoned with, bribed, disciplined or do anything that meant not getting his own way.

He's 8 now and much better but it has changed rather than gone away. It has a big negative impact on his siblings too, but not as much as it has on himself. He hates himself and the world and is often angry and sad because everyone disapproves of him, but still determined to get his own way. He is very sensitive and easily scared, which isnt obvious because of the behaviour but dealing harshly with him does not help, to say the least. However, because so many different techniques have been tried he is wise to them and highly manipulative.

We have been to parenting classes, and are pursuing an ASD diagnosis. If it is not ASD we will get behavioural support. I wish I'd done this sooner instead of struggling on. What really helps is having a strict routine with clear, immediate rewards or sanctions which are firm but not harsh or unfair. I'm sure you know this, but both get on the same page and persist. Also tag team on giving each other and the older two breaks from him. I also found removing myself from the situation ( when not dangerous) was helpful. It is probably best if he has his own room where he can go for quiet and won't trash his siblings stuff.

Sorry if this isa bit rambling but your post rang a lot of bells! Good luck, he needs lots of your love, hugs and energy too!

It sounds as though you're really lacking confidence about it all OP. you can take control! He is formidable but he is two. You at least have height on your side . You need to very calmly match his sheer force of will. lingILong has good advice about focussing on yourself, to prevent losing it.

You say DH is stricter, what is his approach?

Re time out - you need somewhere you can shut him, if only for your own sanity while he screams - put a high latch on his bedroom door. Tell him he can come out and rejoin nice activities with his brothers when he is ready to talk, not shout. And consciously teach him calm communication.

So easy to say I know.

Take the neighbours a bottle of wine and explain what you are doing and why. And remind yourself it will mean far less screaming in the long run.....

hi OP. Not really got much helpful advice but just wanted to offer moral support as another one with a very difficult third child. DS2 (22m) is a fighter and a biter, attacks DD and DS1 with alarming regularity, sometimes when he's cross to retaliate, other times totally unpredictably for no apparent reason.

He rages about the tiniest things, and has done since I can remember. Butts in, spoils games, stories, screams when i'm trying to talk to the other two.

I agree with some of the advice already given about boundaries, and consistency, but the more children you have the harder it is to implement the strategies effectively because there are so many people about complicating it. If the difficult DC is having a screaming tantrum it's hard for everyone to ignore, even if you try to carry on with what you were doing with the older ones.

Only general advice I've got is if you're trying to allocate specific time to each DC then to have planned something absorbing and engaging for the other two individually, ideally in separate rooms so they aren't as likely to kick off at each other.

Yes my not remaining calm is not helpful. DH is big, imposing and just shouts very forcefully. He still behaves the same way do he isn't worried about it happening as a consequence but he does respond. He does then do the same things again though.

DH does find him hard as well.

I am going to try all of these techniques.

I haven't been in your situation but as a single parent a coping strategy I'm not proud of for when I just can't keep fighting dd but can't afford to lose is the buggy.

I rarely have to do it and I don't threaten it repeatedly but sometimes if needs be I strap her in the buggy and either leave her in the dark til she goes to sleep (if its a bed time fight) or leave her until she's calmed down enough to communicate with.

I would take your older 2 aside separately and apologise again for what you said and tell them your going to get on top of dc3.

It sounds like they will be onside and helpful allies.

Good luck

It might help to think of it from your DS3's point of view. He is learning about the world and has fairly recently found out that he has quite a lot of power to change things.

Now power is only a good thing with control. He isn't old enough to have the control but you're giving it to him so he doesn't feel safe. He needs you to be in control because that will reassure him, help him learn to manage his emotions and enable him to use his power more appropriately.

He's also finding out that, like all other two year olds, he can have different levels of power at different times. He can choose what sort of biscuit to have but not what meat he has at dinner time. He can choose a story when you're alone with him but his brothers choose sometimes when they are around. He can have a snack at some times of the day but not at others. He needs to work out what he can control and what he can't by trial and error.

While he's experimenting to work it all out, you're making it ten times harder for him because sometimes you're saying no and meaning it, sometimes you're letting him do things you said no to yesterday and sometimes you're saying no but then saying yes if he screams loudly enough. He has no chance of working out what the rules are and the only solution to that is to scream and tantrum every time in case that's one of the times when it works.

If you decide on the rules and make them consistent, he will learn them much more quickly and stop screaming when he knows there is no point.

Shouting at him will frighten him and perhaps stop the behaviour you don't like at that moment but it doesn't help him understand the rule about that behaviour so he will still do it again tomorrow.

You can do this, starting tomorrow but don't just hug him before you start. Hugs are perfectly appropriate if he wants them when he's upset. You don't need to be cross or disapproving, just calm and consistent.

Remember, time out is removal from the situation and a chance for everyone to calm down. It shouldn't be a punishment and you don't need to create a while new battle of making him sit in a special place. He can calm down in a place of his choosing if he's able to do that and rejoin the others when he's ready to accept that he can't have his own way.

Good luck. It will be worth it

I have a less testing two-nearly-three year old. He is quite upset about the arrival of his sister, 7mo ago, at which point he became a wild, wild thing.

Our problem is is when he flips out into crazy mode, it's really hard to communicate with him. He just cackles like a maniac/ screams/ yells, "Meh!" until I stop talking. Which by the way makes me feel like a total dick though I under no circumstances let on.

Anyway, my best tips are:

1. Work really hard on the relationship when he's not flipping out. I get more leeway if we are getting on well all day. For us this means: offering choices where possible, playing with him for short but intensive spurts, giving him a clear sense of being in charge because I am interested in his perspective (rather than warily avoiding conflict iykwim), telling him what I'm doing and asking would he like to help, giving things I easily can give like changing the order I do something at his request

1. Preparing for transitions a lot - countdowns, negotiations, agreements

1. Never saying please when I am giving him an instruction because he interprets that as meaning it's up to him whether he complies. So it's never, 'Please will you put your shoes on?' - it's 'You need your shoes on to go out'

1. This is my best, best tip and I swear by it even if it seems innocuous. Instead of telling him what to do, tell him what the problem is. So, instead of 'don't throw your books on the floor' this evening, I said, 'books on the floor get damaged or lost'. My DS responds poorly to constant 'don't/ stop/ do/ you must/ be careful/ be quiet/ be x/y/z/' but responds well to being given information that he can then act on with a sense of autonomy.

1. Be sympathetic - when he goes into meltdown totally unreasonably I try to let him know I understand his desire and would grant it if I could, and that I know it's frustrating to not have things go your way. Even if what he wants is totally impossible and unreasonable and I would never ever go along with it (e.g. give his sister back - I'm not sure we established who to/ leave her at home on her own/ go out without her etc.) I try to give him a sense that I am on his side.

1. Try to stay cool. My best best tantrum response is disinterested sympathy - 'O, I can see you are really upset by this' while remaining totally unmoved by what he actually wants/ is saying. It's easier said than done but much more simple if you don't make the mistake of trying to talk him out of whatever mad or impractical scheme he has devised. Eg. the information that he just fucking can't fly in a model aeroplane does nothing to calm his rage no matter how rational it feels to point that out. Sympathy that he really wants to fly it but can't is easier on you because you aren't trying to reason with someone irrational and easier on him because he doesn't develop the sense of being a thwarted genius who'd be on his way to lapland if it wasn't for his evil mother.

1. Remember that boundaries make us feel safe. When my DS is pushing it, I try to keep in mind that he wants and needs me to be strong enough to contain him. If I can keep that forefront in my mind, it's easier to stay calm and firm in the face of the mania...

I have same issue as op and reallynearly, ds,2, does things like...shut book i am trying to read to dd,5, turn music off when we listening to it, break up puzzles i am doing with dd etc etc. I am lp and have tough time and he tends to get own way just so we can carry on, but dd does care and notice and it isn't fair and while it was ok when he was infant, this thread has enouraged me to set boundaries.

Also fwiw my sister (3rd child) was a fucking terror as a two-four yr old, totally ruled the roost. Easily the most charming and genuinely lovely of the four of us now :)

I have a 2 year old who is a massive handful she tries to rule the roost. We have zero tolerance now if she shouts is naughty demands any behaviours don't accept its into the hall or up to the cot. It's working most of the time but sometimes it's a whole day of itl go in to the hall 5/6 timesin a day. When out for lunch the other day she was tantruming I want this chair no Daddy I want mummy all that nonsense and dh just lifted her took her outside into car until the rest of us finished lunch. It's interesting you say your ds cries for up yo 30 mins, my dd did 45 and I just calmly pottered about till she stopped got up and started helping me and talking to me. It's tough love and though at the beginning I'd try and do all the sympathy like oh I know your upset right now bla bla I felt she was playing up to that even more so she knows when she does something naughty she is testing me to see what I'll do. She's my oldest so I'm learning but zero tolerance approach may help,