I have just said something unforgivable to my DC

[AnneWentworth]

I find DS3 challenging. He is 2, he will be 3 early in the new year.

He is spirited and loving and gives lovely hugs and talks all the time and is friendly, but he is really getting me down.

we have two other DSs who are almost 8 and 6. He gets into every single thing you could possibly imagine. We are childproofed (for the first time) then the other day I found him opening a window that even I need to stand on something to get to. I find it impossible to do anything when he is around me because either he is being lovely but attached to me or putting pencils in microwaves (outing myself) so you can't even trust him to go to the loo.

All of this I can just about manage, but he is beginning to have an effect on my relationship with my other DC and on my behaviour towards them.He won't even let me have a conversation with them, if I try to read a story he has to be the one on my lap, he decides when the story is over even if the other two want to hear it. If one is allowed their computer or iPad time he has to be involved and then just turns it off. He won't share anything, like the massive bowl of popcorn tonight. He won't let them watch what they want, he won't let them do their homework. He now won't go to bed without them - which was when we were able to do these things.

He shares a room with DS2, but this is recent, as the older two shared until recently. DS1 has a large bed and they all agreed to have a sleepover in his room tonight. DS3 insisted on a book and DS1 offered to read it. But, he wouldn't let DS2 look at it. Then he kept messing about with the pages, then he took the book and refused to let DS1 finish reading it (he had got into it). DS1 then said he either gave the book back or had to sleep in his own bed. FOr too long we have given into him because he is little/learning etc. DS1 had an outburst where he declared we always make him give everything to his brother - and e is right. I removed DS3 from the bed (with the bloody book) and he was happy in the bunk bed in his own room for a while and I had a chate with DS1 and DS2. DS1 mostly sulked and didnt want to talk and was visiibly upset.

DS3 then came back and insisted he be allowed to sleep in the middle of the bed where DS2 was lying. He was screaming and screaming (he always screams when he wants something) and I shouted at DS2 to let him sleep there and shouted that I was at the end of my tether and that one day soon I was going to walk out of the door and never come back. I was crying like a bloody idiot. DS2 immediately moved, gave me a big hug but was sobbing on my shoulder. I immediately told him and DS1 (as well as DS3 who wasnt listening at all btu just happy he got the spot he wanted), that I was just upset and tired and that of course I would never ever leave them and I loved them all very much.

I just feel so shit. And I have made me kids feel even shitter before bed. I dread my days off with DS3 and where I might get stressed. I feel like I am constantly shouting at the other two almost more that DS3.

He doesnt respond to any kind of sanction or bribery.

goldmandra think your advice is so good and sound but think an extra dimension here is OP's other two children eg the situation she originally describes - if she is constantly leaving with DS3 she is also always leaving her other children iyswim.

Also time out often needed so parent can have a minute to catch their breath and stay calm.

If you are really firm and consistent about returning to time out it should only take a week or two (max) before he learns that he has to stay there. It will involve some lengthy battles over the first days as you make him see that this time you mean business, but small children are adaptable! Maybe try it over the holidays if you're worried about disrupting homework?

I am actively giving it a go. Homework was just an example.

I explain that as soon as he has calmed down, stopped screaming etc we can go back or go and do something similar but he can't hear me because of the crying and trying to escape immediately.

Just keep waiting, however long it takes. Literally hours if necessary. then the minute he stops screaming and fighting you move on with a smile and carry on doing what you were doing before it all kicked off.

It will take time. Remember he has had months of learning that screaming gets people to give in. He doesn't know that you've decided to change your tack on this. he only knows that your not giving in at the moment.

He will have to push and push on lots of occasions until he realises that the screaming doesn't work any more. The more consistent you are about waiting for him to stop, the sooner he will get the idea.

Please don't shut him in a hallway or room on his own. He doesn't need to be rejected. He just needs to manage his emotions more appropriately. He can learn to do that while you are with him being a calm, reassuring presence while not giving in to his demands.

rootypig is right that you will spend a lot of time leaving the room in the short term but I think that is a necessary evil. As long as they are safe they will be fine and you are making a change which will greatly improve their quality of life.

This isn't a magic cure. The tv programmes make it look like you can crack this in a day or two and then everything in the garden is rosy. It isn't really like that. It's hard work and takes a lot of energy and commitment at the beginning but the rewards are well worth it.

There's been some really good advice on this thread. -listen to goldmandra, that's exactly what you need to be doing. Ds2 had a tendency to push and push at that age but I knew that if I EVER gave in then that would be it - his behaviour would get even worse. So dh were consistent, had firm boundaries and NEVER relented despite ds2 screaming and moaning and whining. It was hard work, that age, but I'm so thankful that we were very stubborn and firm because he came through it and knows not to bother trying to push us now because it gets him nowhere.

I did find his behaviour much more wearing when he was tired or hungry and tried to tell myself "he's only being a pain because he's tired etc" rather than think into head "oh, ds2 - he's a right whingy pain in the arse!" I never let him off because of it but I suppose it helped me to understand the reasons for his behaviour and offer him a snack or take him for a nap.

Your ds's bedtimes sound far too late. He needs to understand that he is the youngest in the house and needs more sleep than the others. Can you put him to bed first - read him a story, have a chat etc then make it clear that that is his one on one time over with and he needs to sleep while you do the same for the other children. (Explain and discuss this with your other children so you have an agreed plan of how you're going to tackle any whingeing from his room while you're with the other children.)

Things like not sharing his popcorn are solved simply. If he won't share, you take the popcorn off him and put it away. (No need to rub it in his face by letting the other kids eat it instead - you just want it so that HE doesn't get to have it either if he's not prepared to let the others have some.)

Just re-reading your OP. it's full of "he won't let them blah blah blah...." Repeated for various situations. Well - of course he will let them, he is 2 - he just has to be MADE to let them. YOU are the one in charge and so YOU tell HIM what to do. If you put extra effort in now and refuse to let his screaming tug at your emotions or your patience you will reap the benefits in the long term, believe me. Discuss the plans to ignore his screaming with the others so that everyone is doing the same and he will soon realise he is not top dog.

It is short term pain for long term gain, it really is. You CAN regain control in your family, it just takes an unwaveringly firm stance.

NEVER GIVE IN!

God OP I am in a similar situation with my dc2. Really putting me off dc3 actually.

His bedtime is 7.30 - is that really too late?

The advice here is brilliant I agree and that's why I am working on it. Going to get him in earlier tonight and see if we can make it work.

7.30 MiGHT be too late if he's then awake for another hour messing around. What time is he usually actually asleep?

My 2 kids are 10 and 8 and I generally start steering them towards bed between 7.30 and 8. Both usually fast asleep by 9.

I think at 2 they were fast asleep by 8pm. (I remember because dh was usually cooking a late tea for just us and it was always the time he aimed to have it ready.). Used to wake up between 7 and 8am.

He isn't awake for another hour, he goes to bed and goes to sleep. This is the one area we have no problems with. We do story before hand and he is tucked in and ready for 7.30.

I don't think tiredness is the problem.

Food might be. He was a poor eater for quite sometime but now just eats constantly, but not always great stuff so perhaps this has an impact. DH is particular feeds him a lot of processed shit. Do you think this could be a factor? Coupled obviously with him being 2 and just pushing boundaries and me not being firm enough etc.

Ps what is the reason the 2 year old and 6 year old are sharing a room now? Makes much more sense for the 2 closest in age to share and the youngest in own room (oldest 2 could have same bedtime, including same story, dc 3 is still a toddler and needs an earlier toddler's bedtime and different story for his age group - the age gap is quite big between him and the other 2.)

Also, it's worth remembering that your oldest 2 are still very young themselves - it is unfair of them to try to deal with their needs coming last. This bad behaviour has to be stopped now, for their sakes (as well as ds3 and your own) otherwise as they get older you will lose their trust and respect. This kind of thing really has the potential to divide your family and cause massive resentment in your older kids - but it isn't too late to turn it around, you just need to take the control back.

Not sure about the food issue being a possible cause foe the behaviour but you have my sympathy there as my ds2 (the difficult one!) is also very fussy and would eat just processed shit if we let him.

They are very trying, aren't they?!

My ds was hugely challenging when he was little and I found time out just didn't work at all because it was such a battle, and we'd end up with him in his room and me holding the door shut whilst he pretty much threw himself at it. Not calming at all!

Best for us was just to walk away from the tantrum and leave him to it, and then come back to cuddle him when the worst throws of it were over. I did the same when we were out and about too. Got some weird looks but again trying to intervene just made things worse.

Rewards and star charts didn't work either because he'd throw tantrums about not getting stars too!

A good routine, plenty of warning about change, enough sleep and most importantly enough to eat made him a happier boy but essentially time and growing up sorted things out for him. He is still impulsive and challenging, but in a much more 'normal' way now (for a teenager that is!)

DS1 asked to. The age gap between him and DS2 is only two years but developmentally they really have a gulf at the moment. He asked for his own space. I am questioning the decision now.

DH is particular feeds him a lot of processed shit. Do you think this could be a factor?

No. Being hungry could be detrimental to his behaviour but if he eats all the time that's unlikely. He's not going to be going too long between meals.

I am questioning the decision now.

You made that decision for good reasons. If sleep isn't usually an issue the shared bedroom should work fine once you have worked out the new routine. The key is to work it out and stick to it so your LO knows when bedtime is coming up and that it's non-negotiable.

Just keep focussed on being consistent about boundaries and, if anything else needs changing, deal with that later.

Matilda - that is reassuring. DS2 was difficult between 2-4 lying down on the street etc, but I don't remember it causing me this much stress. I dont ever remember not wanting to take him out in spite of how terrible he was outside. But I found I could spot the signs and often stop it before it kicked off, but DS3 it could just be he wants more grapes and I say no cue loads of screaming. I feel like I know that he will come through it but I also know that I have to put the effort in too.

No advice but he sounds very like my DS who is similar in age. Older DC completely different personality, generally laid back; 2 year old, lovely child but such hard work!

Oh god when I read the thread title I thought it was going to be something really unforgiveable!

What you said really is not that awful. In the context of a normal family your children won't suddenly start worrying that you might disappear, they will know that you were just at the end of your rope. It doesn't harm children to be reminded occasionally that parents are human beings with feelings and limits and tempers, just like them.

I would say just cuddle them and reassure them, but you have already done that so just be a bit less hard on yourself and stop worrying xx

Having real issues with Ds1 (5) and have been recommended a book called 1-2-3 magic. It has really helped (although we did have a major set back tonight). Might be worth giving it a shot. It covers all the scenarios such as being out etc.

Its so bloody hard isn't it. I also said similar to you the other week and felt awful.

I don't think what you said was that bad at all. I have a 6.5 year old and a 2.8 year old who is very attached to me and will be disruptive when my son wants some attention but I keep explaining to her that it is not fair and they have to take turns. It is definitely sinking in as she repeats what I've said at random times of the day.

I've explained to DS that to a certain extent this behaviour has to be tolerated as it is not an even playing field and she does not think like him or understand fairness as well as him. It is not that all his needs are secondary but it has made him less resentful and he's quite protective of her rather than competitive. When he has friends over that don't have little siblings and they get annoyed with her, DS reminds them that she is 2.

Personally, I think 'locking' a 2 year old in a room for 'time out' is a bit cruel. Equally, it must be very scary for a 2 year old to be strapped into a pushchair in a dark room. It seems unnecessarily extreme IMO.

We seem to be doing ok. He was misbehaving at soft play yesterday and I kept calm and told him a number of times to not do what he was doing. I explained we would go home and almost went then gave him another last chance which I perhaps shouldn't have. Anyway I then picked him up and left, put in the pushchair. When we got to our building we stayed outside for a little while until he was calmer as he was shouting and jumping in the pushchair. When he was calmer we went in doors had some pop corn and watched cbeebies.

The noticeable difference was that I remained calm. I didn't let the shouting impact on me and I stuck to my guns.

I keep removing him each time he interferes with his brothers when asked not to and although we don't seem to have made visible progress (I.e. he still does it) my calm and to the point manner is making it more manageable.

I have to say thanks to all of you as your comments and suggestions really have made me stand back and think about it all.

To be honest when I posted in was literally about 10 mins after it had all happened and I was still really upset and teary.

I have said a lot worse. And I'm not even ashamed or apologising for it.
Op was giving herself far too much of a hard time.