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Explaining god - advice needed by non-religious parents

274 replies

BadHair · 18/02/2004 23:20

Ds1 has developed a fascination for churches. He knows the names of all the churches for miles around and can tell you if they have spires, clocks, towers etc. Although I find this a bit strange, as we're not a religious family by any stretch of the imagination, I also think its quite sweet.
However, he's started to ask what churches are, and who lives in them. I've told him that no-one lives in them and that they're places where some people like to go to sing hymns and say prayers, and so far he's happy with that. But its only a matter of time before he asks what hymns and prayers are.
So, how on earth do atheist parents give a simple explanation of god etc to a 3 yr old in a balanced, sensible fashion?

OP posts:
Clarinet60 · 26/02/2004 16:53

Oh Marina... I'm glad you discovered her.

Tinker · 26/02/2004 18:44

Thinking about the lifeboat analogy again and keep thinking about marthamoo's comment

"If my six year old died tomorrow, without loving God in the way you describe, would he get in your lifeboat? 'Cos I'm not getting in it without him."

Or if your children grow up to gay, choose to study the bible and dismiss it...

StripyMouse · 26/02/2004 19:39

re Aloha?s comment : And how could you be 'happy' in 'heaven' if you knew your children, say, were suffering somewhere else? It couldn't be heaven in that case, so what would it be? Hell?

Great question one that (as a Christian) I have really struggled to find a reasonable answer to. In fact, it is still swirling around my sorry little brain now. Please, someone help me out and find an answer to it that I can live with.

Clarinet60 · 26/02/2004 21:12

I do understand that the world we live in is the only model that allows free will. If God was popping up all over the place, the presence of the safety net would negate all danger, so you wouldn't know the true value of safety, etc. It would all become like acting in a play and just waiting for the game of life to end so you could get to eternity and have fun. But we have to live within the constraints of the model we've got, and that means that it's unreasonable to make such strict conditions around entering the misty, hard-for-some-to-see lifeboat.

Clarinet60 · 26/02/2004 21:14

Stripeymouse, my answer is that we've got that part wrong. Everyone is going to be OK. God/the universe/whatever wouldn't waste all those people.

bloss · 26/02/2004 22:35

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pupuce · 26/02/2004 22:42

Hi Bloss - off topic.... but I have e-mailed you but not sure this was the right e-mail address.... maybe I got the wrong one ?
Sorry butting out of this conversation !

JJ · 26/02/2004 22:47

Don't worry musica. My husband, an atheist, likes the sound of it too. It corresponds well with the ideas we're trying to teach our sons.

Clarinet60 · 26/02/2004 22:56

I don't know about anyone else, but after that, I feel even further away. I can't get my head round it, let alone live up it. It seems like an unbelievably supreme being is expecting an extraordinary amount of love, or something, from us, after a very flimsy introduction, or we fry.

ScummyMummy · 26/02/2004 23:30

I think that if there is a God she made a very nice Droile before she broke the mould. And lots of other fab mumsnetters too.

I also think- tentatively- that perhaps everyone has different stories about the world and that God or no-God is a part of that. Personally, I like to hear people's different stories about the world. They're rich and complex and interesting. People seem to weave "truth" out of their time and place and context; their threads are the dominant or hidden stories that they can access, maybe. Some stories may be more convincing than others. That's why it DOES generally make more sense for people in the 21st century Western world to believe in Christ rather than Zeus- there are dominant stories that encourage that to happen. However, though Jesus does narrowly beat Zeus in the factual story stakes, I think it's still a flawed narrative FOR ME in my time and place and context. Clearly it's not a flawed story for others and I respect that. But I have other important, clashing stories and that makes it hard for me personally to buy into a God story. For example, I have a big problem with Bloss's God's failure to understand equality of opportunity and genuinely think that God would be a twat if she created people who COULDN'T see the truth and then punished them for that. I also reject Miranda's God story for myself (but NOTE- NOT FOR HER), because I haven't felt God in my life, so that story doesn't make sense for me. Nor does the story told by Droile's fictional muslim granny. Nor does Bozza's wee boy's story about Santa appeal to ME very much, though it's sweet and obviously makes perfect sense for him. (I'm a bit more tempted by his disbelief in his Auntie! That could make sense for me- after all, what relevance has an internet friend's real life sister got in the general scheme of my life?) I'm not sure about the Dworkins selfish gene story- reading it might help- but like aspects of the empathy one a la Aloha.

I know that some of my deeply treasured stories don't make sense to other people. Lots of parents I meet don't like the "smacking is wrong" story that I carry with me, for example. They tell a "smacking is discipline" story. Sometimes we exchange stories. Sometimes people's stories change. Perhaps morality comes out of the exchanges and debating and agreeing on which bits of which stories matter most to us? I think we're all endlessly striving make moral and spiritual sense of our world(s) and personally I want to listen to and talk about, admire and debunk people's stories- frankly I'm totally fascinated and awed.

Tinker · 26/02/2004 23:57

Anyone see the debate on BBC2? Sister Wendy to Sean Hughes when he asked if he'll go to heaven if he doesn't believe but is good: 'Of course' Sean Hughes to Sister Wendy: 'Respect'

bloss · 27/02/2004 02:19

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ScummyMummy · 27/02/2004 07:57

Yes, Bloss, I know that's your view, and I hope you weren't offended by my language. "Twat" wasn't the best chosen word. Sorry. What I'm trying to argue is that "bible holds all answers if you look with faith" is one of the stories that resonates strongly for you because you have created/selected that out of all the ones on offer to you- and your particular constitution, place in the world, social network etc makes that story the most strongly attractive/true one for you right now and you therefore privilege it over all other stories. Other people privilege different stories.
btw to challenge your story again: How do you think God reaches people who can't read the bible, then? Or people who can't understand it? Or people who don't DO words, constitutionally? Or people who don't have the capacity for rigorous biblical historicity study? There must be different strands within your view to encompass people in this position, surely? Why has the God in your story given you a bible and a mind that can analyse it, given me a bible and the choice to stupidly ignore it but not given some of the kids I work with any chance at all of accessing or understanding the scriptures in any way?

robinw · 27/02/2004 08:22

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miranda2 · 27/02/2004 08:36

hiya. Gosh this does get us all heated doesn't it?? I think i am cuddly, so can't quite get my head round all the anger here, except i know the church and the behaviour of many christians (and flawed teachings over the centuries) have a lot to answer for.
Obviuously, if you don't believe you don't, and nothing anyone can say is going to change your mind. I was a convinced atheist until i was 20, when i was studying the history of philosophy as part of my history degree. I slowly came to the philosophical conclusion that God was needed to make sense of the traditional western morality structure (didn't believe, so therefore that rested on no basis imo) (not sure i think this so strongly any more by the way). Then i had a 'conversion experience' - seemed to actually experience the presence of God one day. That's the only thing that could hvae 'converted' me, so obviously i can't say anyone else 'should' be converted by any less. Why doesn't god do that to evreyone? Not the faintest idea, and yes it does bother me.
I guess i think of my faith in quite a scientific way - its my working hypothesis. Currently it fits the facts of my experience better than anything else. Other things that i experience in the future may well modify my views, as they have already been modified in the 10 years or so i'v been a christian. We can all only honestly make sense of our own experience, and since we have all had different experiences that means we are going to come to different interim conclusions. This doesn't mean there isn't an 'absolute truth', but it does mean we can never be totally sure we've got it (we can say we're 'sure', but what we mean is we feel it to be the case that its true, its not a philosophical statement).
Re the crucifixion/atonement/how does it work/ is God a bastard to have done it? - big questions that theologians have argued about for, ooh, two millenia! My current feeling on this is quite coloured by my experience of pmd, i think. As part of that i got vry over-empathic, and virtually felt the pain of anyone anywhere as if it was happening to me or my child. This made me very very aware of all the evil and suffering that goes on in the world (torture, especially, is so hard to account for - how can anyone enjoy causing pain??). So i think at the moment that the crucifixion actually makes sense, in that it takes the reality of evil very seriously - God can't just get round it, it needs to be gone through to come out the other side (like the 'were going on a bear hunt story!). I think the crucifixion and resurrection were decisive for the whole world, for all history, not just for those afterwards who 'choose' to believe - it changed (for all time) the relationship between God and the world. Just as you don't have to be a Christian to enjoy the sun and rain, you don't have to be one to enjoy the benefits of the resurrection (bit controversial there, maybe). the world is still a shitty place - and no, i don't understand why and boy do i wish it were different - but there is hope. I used to think ideas of heaven were just wish fulfilment, after the pmd i think i now feel there has to be a heaven for there to be any justice in the world - not because i want it for me or my family specifically, because we are quite comfortable and happy now, but for all those kids who die of starvation in their first year, or women who die after prolonged rape and torture, etc etc. Not that they need the hope (they might not even know about it), but that its just not fair otherwise.
I guess the alternative is it just isn't fair. This may be true, how do i know. But i know i can't bear that thought - whcih i fully agree makes no difference to its truth status.
This makes it all sound like wish fulfillment agian - it isn't, because this is all theorising later, the basis of my faith is my experience of God and subsequent lesser experiences in services, communion, prayer, other people.

bloss · 27/02/2004 08:44

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bloss · 27/02/2004 08:46

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slug · 27/02/2004 08:58

Bloss, you've just gone and demonstrated exactly what I mean. For you there "is such a thing as truth" and then you go on to imply that what YOU believe is truth and what I believe is as riduculous as believing that the sky is red.

If you want to believe in a bunch of Middle Eastern myths wrapped up in dogma and prejudice, then go ahead, but don't pity me for finding religion dangerous and divisive.

Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 11:13

Scummy, what a lovely post, thank you

There is no anger here, just debate.

I think there's a lot of skirting of issues going on, though. I've tried to get it down to short, simple sentences, and still don't hear any answers.

There are millions of people in the world who not only don't have the bible read to them, they aren't ALLOWED anywhere near it, on pain of persecution at worst and ridicule at best.

I've read the bible, and don't see what you see, Bloss. Is there something wrong with my eyes? There are some good passages, but lots of it deals with incitment to make war, vengeance and sheer unfairness. I find it hard to find a passage I like and try to believe it's the word of God when on the next page, there will be something totally abhorrent. I still maintain that the lifeboat is well nigh invisible. That is my truth, and no matter how hard I wish for it to be false, nothing changes.

Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 11:17

Miranda, I have to confess that I've experienced a presence too, it's been there all my life. I'd like to think it's God, but it may well be some aspect of my own consciousness that isn't quite as detached and silent as it should be. It may even be some other being, I don't know. But that presence has never altered my commonsense interpretation of the bible. Some of it is awful and some of it is good. I'm not at all sure that it's the direct word of God.

Tinker · 27/02/2004 11:19

Droile - interested in what you mean by a 'presence'. Can you describe what you mean?

Clarinet60 · 27/02/2004 11:50

It's like there's someone there in the room with you. They are always there, but when you tune in and concentrate, you can feel them more strongly. It's like someone is trying to communicate with you without using words or even thoughts, just feelings. It's very hard to explain. There are also odd coincidences that happen when a prayer is answered. It sounds pathetic and unlikely, but something usually (not always)seems to happen. Some of it could be explained psychologically, btw.

bloss · 27/02/2004 11:58

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bloss · 27/02/2004 12:02

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Tinker · 27/02/2004 12:04

No, Droile, understand perfectly. I never feel alone, I constantly have conversations with 'someone', usually out loud, and have done this all my life (probably regret admitting that now ) but I've never thought of it as anything other than talking to myself but projecting my other self/slves onto someone else in order to get 'their' views on things. This might be nothing like you mean though.