Do you shout and is it as bad as

[HelloDolly]

smacking in your opionion ?

I shout but don't smack, but when I was a child I could be reduced to a snivelling heap by Mum or Dad shouting at me so I wonder whether it's just as bad.

If you don't please, please tell me what works instead, I have actually lost my voice today from yelling at them to stop hitting and winding each other up.
It is lack of attention today because I am knackered but this isn't a widly unusual day.

I'm probably being very obtuse but I just don't get how the singing or whispering would work.

Singing worked beautifully for me when my second child was 0-18 month but it doesn't work with him now. In fact, i composed one song because of my baby when he was crying and i was trying to settle him tp sleep. Whispering helps because kids have to stop shouting themselves in order to hear what you say but as you can imagine, whatever you choose, it soon wears out. i think we have to be creative and whatever works today might not work tomorrow. I believe in distraction and humour but when I'm really tired or ennoyed, I can't bring myself doing it. I try though whenever I can. Sometimes I just smile and say to my kids that I love them and they calm down.

does anyone think that shouting actually works ? My DD didn't want to go up to bed tonight. Instead of shouting I told her I was going upstais & I wanted her to follow. I also said if she didn't come the trip to legoland ( for her 3rd birthday ) would be cancelled. Pleased to say she followed my upstairs !

I seem to be shouting at ds2 (4yr) a lot at the mo as he never does as hes asked, however he is a bit deaf just now (grommet failing in one ear and now has infection), and recently been getting fed up with dd (18mo) who is forever putting crap in her mouth. Not literally, but y'day was the final straw when, after a perfectly good supper she toddled out into the garden and picked up the mouldy bit of bread (for the birds) and put that in her mouth. I did shout at her to spit it out. I brought her back to the kitchen (boys still eating at this point) where she promptly picked up a bit of broccolli from the floor and ate that. ARGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Did I mention that she's been suffering from a gut but for the past 3days?

My level of "raised voice" is directly related to how little sleep I get. Very little for the past few nights with dd and tepid sponge bathing to get temp down, hence far more shouting at kids. Makes me feel shite. Mum did shout a lot at me as a child, and I do wonder if I'm just following a learnt trait.....depressing really as I try so hard not to.

At least I dont smack! Hurrah!

nowanearlynicemum - the singing works because it is processed in a different area of the brain

I taught an elective mute who couldn't or wouldn't speak and he sang to me straight away first lesson.

yes, but singing is such a positive and pleasurable thing that I can't understand a) how I'm supposed to do it when dd is driving me up the wall and b) how it gets the desired result....

am a great believer in the power of music but am just not sure that this approach is feasable - unless you're an unbelievably 'zen' sort of person, in which case you probably wouldn't be shouting in the first place.

I am SO glad I am not the only one who shouts. I am a really shouty person and I hate it. Its not very effective, it just makes everyone more upset and then we all land up in tears, me him and his sister (18 months). I am really struggling with my ds (3) who is defiant, cheeky, argumentative, whiny, ignores me, refuses to get dressed/go to the toilet/get in the car/brush teeth etc etc, pushes really hard when I say no, aarrrghhhh its such hard work at the moment.

I have screamed like a fishwife, and smacked, I have almost shaken him, and have scared him so much he wees himself a few times, and god I feel so suilty when that happens, its horrendous. Why is the whining etc so annoying ? I dont understand why I seem to be unable to just ignore it, but it really riles me.

I know I need to be more positive and give praise, attention, and notice stuff and generally play with him more, bu he is so contrary that nothing is fun any more. We are really stuck in a spiral of negativity. I hope it is just temporary and maybe by the time he is 4 we will be back on track again.

As an anti smacker I have written my post and rewritten it too many times - I think my views on the topic are probably too inflammatory!
One little point though - why do we use the term smacking so much? Is it just me, or do others think that some mums use "smacking" as it sounds morally more reasonable than to casually admit that they "occasionally hit their child"

I do shout sometimes but don't like doing it very much. Problem is we have a three-storey house, so if ds has gone to play upstairs, he'll often shout to get my attention, and I then shout back. Or, in the mornings, when I'm especially grumpy, ds will shout upstairs to me while he's playing or watching TV and I'm getting dressed. It's then that I really shout back in a nasty way. Will he just come and get me so we can have a normal conversation? Of course not. Grrrr.

Nobody wants to hit or smack their child, it's not a controlled emotional reaction I don't think.
I do not know anyone who has thought I'm going to smack that child and then does, it tends to be heat of the moment and then they feel very bad afterwards, I don't think there's any need for anybody else to rub it in, they feel bad enough already.

HelloDolly - call me paranoid, but I am guessing your post is partly directed at my last post?
Do you really honestly believe that most mums who smack their children find it "just happens"?? OMG. If I found myself hitting my child as a spur of the moment thing I would be devastated. If it happened more than once I would be straight down to my GP to ask for medical help. I thought that many parents who smack are comfortable with it and see it as a part of their discipline route with their children used for extreme situations. Almost as an unpleasant but effective tool for careful use only. I am amazed if most parents who smack their children find themselves doing it almost "by accident" in the heat of the moment?!! I can understand, albeit not agree, with those parents who carefully decide to use smacking as a means to an end, but find it very difficult to imagine parents who lose control and hit their children in temper as a punishment and for it to be totally ok to the point that it is unreasonable for anyone else to suggest it to be worringly wrong as it might upset them more than they already are?? Maybe I am way out of line and am missing something. Not out to cause a fuss or to be seen as holier than thou - I am a crap mum much of the time but draw the line at smacking. I have enough self control never to do it, under any circumstances and I hope to God that I never find that I step over that line.

Sorry - I know this thread is all about comparison not about pros and cons for smacking, not trying to sway the talk. Just genuinely couldn?t help respond to the other post

BB, you could equally argue it the other way round - that it's understandable to smack in the heat of the moment but wrong to smack in a premeditated, cold and calculated manner.

Not saying my own opinion is particularly on one side or the other, just pointing out people could have a view that is directly opposite the one you stated.

BB - how nice for you to be so perfect and self controlled. Anyone who has like me smacked their child when they've got to their wits end feels guilty enough without such judgemental posts. I said earlier that I don't agree with it and I think most people posting have said the same.

I didn't feel the need to rush off to the GP, any more than if I shouted at the kids, or snapped at DH. I haven't smacked regularly over the years and I didn't do it at all when I had only one child - I wonder how many you have?

Bagelbird - I consider myself anti-smacking but I have smacked and it WAS in the heat of the moment and when I was at my wits end/period due/moment of extreme frustration etc.

I know all too well that it means i have lost control and am not thinking properly. I don't think I need medical help, but I DO think I need my husband not to work abroad so much and perhaps that I shouldn't have 3 children all at different stages of life with different conflicting demands.

Perhaps I wouldn't smack (not that it happens at all often) if I had a nanny or a supportive mother that lived nearby instead of 150 miles away. Perhaps if I wasn't ME with all my frustrations and imperfections, perhaps then, i wouldn't ever smack. I don't like it, I disagree with it, but unfortunately for my kids and me it sometimes happens.

And I have seen mothers who smack as a matter of course because they think it is the best way to show baby/toddler not to touch something. They think its good parenting, I think its bad. As the Americans say - go figure.

BB the response was to your post, I'm afraid you are wrong if you think the majority of smackers carefully consider all the options and then decide that a smack is the best way to deal with it. Certainly amongst my circle of very normal well balanced Mums, they will do everything and anything they can think of to control the situation first and when it's out of control the child might get a smack, equally it might get put in another room. It depends on many factors, as somebody else said, I think the person who goes and gets the child to fetch the slipper or whatever and clamly hits the child is the one who needs medical help.

Glassofwine and others who objected to my post - sorry.
Obviously I am wrong in my opinion about why and when most mums smack. I honestly found it amazing that people could smack their child in the heat of the moment. I do and say all sorts of things in the heat of the moment and, glass of wine, you have read me totally wrong if you think for one moment that I beleive I am perfect etc etc - blimey, I am about as paranoid, self doubting and crap a mum as they get. I just cannot for a minute see myself hitting my child in a moment of temper - shouting/sending them to their room/dishing out overly harsh punishments etc - yes of course, now and again. Hitting my child because of a bad day or PMT?? No way. Sorry.
I wish I hadn?t said anything now. Clearly my understanding of other?s views and opinions are way off on this one. I do feel a bit bemused about it but hey, one of the great things about mumsnet is that we live and, boy, do we learn.
Clearly I am in a minority and have upset a few of you and so of course I apologise if my incorrect views have caused offence - not my intention. Will shut up on the topic, leave you to your own parenting and decisions re discipline and slink off

agree with you bagelbird

it would NEVER occur to me to smack ANYONE or lash out in anyway either

Bagelbird - don't slope off. Its your experience and your opinion. It does make me wonder what makes one person lash out while another keeps control. Why do I do something I believe is wrong? Every time I smack (last time was a couple of months ago) I swear I will never do it again.

I have other knee-jerk physical reactions. I get violent when tickled (sounds silly but I hate it so much the fight or flight instinct flies into either mode). Just wondered if there could be any connection. Perhaps not. But I don't remember my mother smacking me so not sure where this all comes from. Any armchair pshcologists out there?

as usual am way late to the thread... but for my 2p worth, and to answer OP, shouting can be as bad as hitting imo, depending on what you say (someone else made that point)...

my mum always seemed to be angry about something and it was a dark cloud over my siblings and my childhoods and relationship with her, even now. she stopped hitting us (big bro and i) when i was v little, and never AFAI Remember hit my younger bro and sis) but the almost ever-present shouting and anger, they were just as bad. messes with your head. she did lots of things right and i have tons of respect for her, dont get me wrong. just think she had trouble coping.

so i try really hard to be calm, patient and frankly, more effective. i HATE it when i lose my rag and shout (and someimes say horrible things )and it never bloody works anyway.

so i buy lots of books, do lots of research and find out ways to do things which feel better for us all and work a bit better too., like SabineJ. MN is a great resource! - i like the singing idea!

annoying thing is, my mum laughs at me in a scathing sort of way when i buy these books, like its a crime to want to do it a bit better?? pisses me off.

Bagel bird - we all have our opinions - I just don't agree with yours, but you have every right to express it.

Have been thinking about the smacking thing over the last day or so and was reminded of why it happens when my DS headbutted me at 5.30 this morning. It hurt like hell and it was a kneejerk reaction to respond physically (which I didn't). I didn't because I was fast asleep, no wound up, stressed etc. But I think when life is one continuous juggling act, when you've had to count to ten, put a smile on your fact and be a nice mummy for the 20th time that day and one last thing happens - you blow.

I'm always getting physicallly hurt, toes stepped on, headbutted, fingers in eyes and thinking about thats often when I lash. Without a doubt I should be able to control and rise above it. I cannot remember the last time I smacked, so don't get me wrong it is rare, but I'd prefer it to be never.

Emmylou

I'm not an armchair psychologist but maybe your reaction is to being out of control and wanting to be back in control. Being tickled puts you in a very vulnerable postion. I hate being tickled too and it is the sense of being over powered and out of control I hate which makes me scared. I don't like being scared and out of control so I get angry to cover it over - fear/fight reaction if you like.

This also happens when I can't get ds to do something I want him to. I can get so angry that I can't control him that I want to smack him too. I never have but only really because I try to be aware of what I am feelng so that if I get too angry I walk away.

I do shout though - I am just not able to completely control the overwhelming feelings of being out of control and the resulting anger when he whines,misbehaves etc.

I am working on it though !!

Also nappiesgalore - I don't know your mum but I bet she laughs scathingly when you buy those books because she feels so bad about some of the things she did. I know that I sometimes find myself justifying the shouting etc. and I get annoyed when others do a better job of parenting or try to do a better job of parenting than me.

I am actually annoyed with myself because I don't do a better job but I turn that into sarcasm against the other person - not a nice trait ! I know but understandable.

Thanks lazycow - you might have a point. I do like to be in control and maybe as parents on an everyday and instinctive/primitive level we feel we should be in control all the time.

Of course personally, I can trace such feelings of lack of control back to childhood incidents such as my parents divorce but whilst i believe these events do affect us, I can't see why I seem unable to make a conscious decision never to smack and stick to it. It is something i work on and like NappiesGalore I buy the books, read them and even pass them on to friends. I even have a page from a booklet of Positive Discipline Tips stuck on my fridge.

Like Glassofwine - with smacking, I'd just prefer it to be never. Its an internal thing - I need to practise more self control rather than trying to control external circumstances. Bloody hell - I'm turning into an armchair psychologist now.

Mmmm, interesting topic....
I do shout and my god it works... even the dog runs for cover. Like many other MNers I only do it as a last resort (i.e. asked ds and dd 3 times to put shoes on and they are still messing about b4 school) I shout in anger and frustration. I hate doing it but it's effective and the effects can last over 24hrs. I always explain that I was angry and that I didn't want to shout but THEY weren't listening when I asked them nicely. If, when I cool down, I think my shouting was unnecessary, I always apologise. I think it's important for kid's to realise that adults get angry (as they do themselves). We talk about things that we do that might make other people angry and things that make us angry, and coping strategies for dealing with things when we are angry. My two are older now and so I don't need to smack any more. I used smacking sparingly when they were preschoolers and hardly ever in anger (I realised that smacking in anger (for me) was always wrong). I freely admit to smacking in premeditated, cold blood (so shoot me). I never did it without warning & it was always effective. As a result I very rarely had to do it as a 'threat' was enough. My children are no more aggressive/violent than those belonging to my liberal parenting, anti-smacking friends (some of whose little darlings are little thugs), and may I say (smugly) that they are better behaved and have greater respect for 'boundaries'.

Hmm yes, I've had the dog try and do a runner on walks because I shout at the kids to hurry up/get out of the way of the oncoming tractor etc. If I so much as raise my voice the dog legs it.

Doesn't have the same effect on the children though. Perhaps i need voice projection coaching. My 'big' voice works on other peoples kids, just not very well on my own.