So upset with my childrne's behaviour tonight - please help - parenting gurus especially welcome and needed

[lisalisa]

I am very upset and sad ( as well as uptight and angry) tonight. I hope someone who has either been through this or who can advise is able to help and calm me down and defuse my tension.

I have a large family - 5 children aged between 6 months and 9.5 years. My children have always helped in the house and been well behaved - my 9 year old has always tended towards surly and lippy but generally well behaved. My 7 year old and 5 year old are sweet and loving children who generally thrive on being good. Gradually though this has all started to change and the childrne have become ruder andn ruder and more badly behaved. Exa,ples would be not sitting at the dinner table and bringing toys ( ie books or pens ) to the table and not listening when I insist they eat and not play or going to the loo 3 times throughout dinner and generally being disruptive.

Othyer examples would be taking food not allowed ie sweets ( they not its not allowed on weekdays and sneak it away).

Things came to a head tonight though when i left the house for 2 hours to take my 7 year old to a tutor . When I got back the entire kitchen floor was covered in paper, pens and mess - and I mean covered to the extent that you couldn't see the floor underneath. The kids were still in School unifrom despite me leaving instructison that they were to have a wash and get in pjs. The worst was though that my helper was in tears at the sink. I asked her what was wrong ( apart froom the mess!) and she relayed an awful catalogue of rudeness from the childrne. My 5 y old told her to shut up (!), my 7 year old screamed during the one hour after he returned from the tutor whilst I was still out despite her repeated pleas for him to be quiet as baby was sleepoing and my 9.5 year old refused to help as requestedc. For eg my helper asked her to please fetch a nappy or bring a dummmy for baby and she point blank refused saying "why should I help you" to which all the other kids roared with laughter. They were extremly rude and disrespectful and I became white wiht angeer.

Even whjilst I was telling them off my 9.5 year old was smirking and 5 year old seemed oblivious. I have meted out suitable punishments - no friends to stay over weekend, no football and no treats over weekend but have feeling it won't sink in and work as I sent them all to bed and even whilst I'm typoing they'are all giggling.

How can I regain control of my famly and install some respect for authority ( mine and outsiders ) in my kids?

Lisalisa, sorry that you're having such a tough time - was thinking about you the other day and wondering how you were getting on.

I only have three kids and they're a bit younger so we haven't hit this kind of behaviour yet, so I haven't got any useful advice, but I just wanted to send you my best wishes.

Lisalisa - hope you don't mind me asking but what does your helper do for 6 hours a day, I am genuinely interested? Just ignore the question if you think it's too personal.
Hope things have improved for you and your children.

Thanks everyone - black black spot tonight. Think I've actually got pnd asI'm crying over ever stupid thing and I actuyally know the meaning of the word nevous breakdown. My nerves are in shreds and I am actually throwing tantrums at the state of the house ( mess etc) and the fact that I can't cope anyomre. What the hell do I do? Spent nearly one hour under a hot hot shower tonight sobbing. Dh is worried and confused

l-l - just responding to this as a friendly voice -5 kids, with such ages, is a HELL of a job - no wonder you are ragged. Give yourself a break.Can you and the baby- or better - you alone go off during the day ,to meet a friend or just have a solo coffee or a walk? You need a couple of hours' peace and quiet before you can come up with a winning strategem. And you need to build in treats for yourself regularly. as for the helper, do they actually help? You need someone cheery and tough to help you out and be your ally, not someone who is going to collapse on you - though of course I understand we all have our off days. Any chance you could get two part time nannies instead of one full time? So they are fresh and lively? Where is dh in all this?

oh, sounds rough. No idea what to say, but bumping for you. Might be an idea to make sure this thread appears on active conversations tomorrow morning as it may be more likely to seen by people who will take the time to post thoughtful/useful suggestions.

Lisalisa - I think you must be worn out and really need some time out . I hope your dh realises this. Make an appointment to see your dr if you think you have pnd.
If you can go out of the house do not look at the mess . You are much more important. Go for a walk. Have you a friend nearby who would help you ? To let you talk and cry. I really did not want to see the thread disappear. Hope you get some more advice.

thinking of you and thinking how I would crack up every day if I had 5 kids

how many of your children are home with you during the day then?

sounds like they are just desperate for some individual attention. It must be so, so tough with 5 - just can't imagine it.

Can your helper take over the little ones, the ones that have you all day, so that you can do things with the older ones or even better individually?

My nearly 7 yr old plays up big time when he needs attention. That seems to be the main issue here, so if you can in any way just try to split them so that they each get time, even half an hour each in a day it would probably help

Thank you everyone = so many lovely mesages - I can't resond to them all individuallyy so please forgive me although I have read, digested and appreciated evey single one.

Dh has insisted that I take time out for myself ti try and save my sanity so today I had my hair cut for the first time in 3 years. I used to hack it myself . Looks great and gave me such a boost I've been inspired to go back to Slimming Wrold as I'm nearly 5 stone overweight through comfort eating.

We;ve increased our helper's hours so I can sleep in the day as ds2 doesn't sleep well at night due to severe reflux so I am up maybe 5/6 timer per night every night. Dh can never help at night as he works till 12.00am every night and is up again at 6.00am to start work ( financial pressures too ), Now I am sleeping 1-2 hours every day and having bits of time to myself ( half hour here and there to read magazine or make calls ) - it makes a whopping difference. Also taking dd3 (aged 2.5) to a playgroup tomorrow with intention of settling her in - its for 3 hours every morning - again, more space for me.

Tis definately pnd as I cried today when ds spilt a few milk drops on the floor and then ds cried too - he's only 6. Dont want to see doc though as all they can do is presribe anti ds which I don't want to take.

Lisallisa BIG sympathy, I can't believe what you are handling

If you don't want to see a GP there are other things which can help you manage depression - exercise and a healthy diet are the first place to start. Getting out for a walk every day and eating lots of fresh food - fruit/veg/fish will do wonders for your mental health.

You are doing an AMAZING job, don't let this bad day make you feel too shit. xx

lisalisa - oh my goodness - on top of everything else you have a non-sleeping refluxy baby and a dh who is out for such hug lengths of time.

I do think that all this would bring the most invincible woman to her knees, but in truth it does sound as if you have a bit of pnd, too.

I was diagnosed with low level depression when DS was about 2. My gp said it had probably started with the hormonal changes of pg, and just stayed. I took a very low-dose of ADs for 8 months, and almot immediately felt as if I had regained my own self. Not like a zombie, not 'high', just ME at long last. My GP explained it as on a par with aneamia - your serotonin levels fall, and your body needs a supplement in order to get your own supply working again. I knew when i was fully recovered, and stopped without any difficulty or problem. It is such hard work trying to function when you have depression.

I'm really pleased to hear that you are getting a llittle more time to yourself - this is a terribly difficult time for you - be a help magnet an grasp anything that comes your way!

lisalisa, I wish I could give you a big hug, and look after your children for a bit!

Tamum and Blu - thanks. Blu - interesting to hear about your depression and that you took ads without getting addicgted. i think i'm worried that I could become addicted or dependant and feel worse when i come off them. How did you know you were ok again when on them?

Its also a relief to hear you all say that this is a lot to deal with as I keep thinking that all family life must be like this and that I'm getting older/weaker.

Hope dd3 settles tomorrow as playgroup leader is doing me a favour taking her as its so late into the yeare but she was too young last September to go and she doesn't want to acept her if she cries and doesn't settle easily as it will disrupt whole grop.

Also she knows my situation and is taking dd for literally nothing instaed of her usual fee which is really nice of her

I had never intended to take ADs for very long, and, like you, was resistant (if not horrified) that I might actually be depressed and need ADs. Because I felt so much better so quickly, and things stopped feeling like a self-fulfiling prophecy of doom and a downward spiral, I had much more energy for myself, and for seeking out the things that help me deal with stress in a more self-sufficient way. As Morningpaper suggests, things like excercise and good food are a real help to me, but when I was depressed, I didn't have the energy or motivation to get any excercise. I just started to feel as if I was ok. the depression had gone and I didn't feel as if i would sink if I stopped. I had made a plan for cutting down - half a tablet a day, half a tablet every other day etc...in fact after about 3 days of that I simply forget to take them. Then I remembered, my GP had said 'when you feel you don't need them, just don't turn up for another prescription!'. I think you need to take them for 6 months, though, to build up the right chemicals in your brain.

But depression or not - you are a woman with a LOT on your plate, and need some tlc and rest in addition to anything you decide to do about depression.

Brilliant news about DDs new nursery sesions - welll done!

Thanks Blu = that was excellent advise - going to think seriously about going to the GP for ads but before doing so will try to get dd into nursery, eat properly ,diet and look after myself and see if it goes by itself. I had pnd once before when ds1 was diagnosed with meningitis aged 3 weeks and I spent months in hospital with him. They sent round a community psych then but I insisted on no ads and trying to cure myself and it worked slowly but surely. i only had 2 kids then though,more time for me. more dosh to spend on treats to help me feel better and more youth.

That sounds a good plan, LisaLisa - the line between depression, and stress, and plain old exhaustion and misery is very thin and wavery, I think.