another girl is deliberately getting dd into trouble

[potofgold]

I have changed my name as I'm not sure whether my neighbour knows I'm on here!

There's a little girl next door who is in dd's class (yr1). She was 6 in October whereas my dd is younger. This girl is the eldest of 3 and the mother quite happily admits that the girl is her favourite child and a child who can do no wrong in her eyes (and she openly puts down her other two). Although this sounds quite odd, it's all done in a very subtle way and unless you knew the family well, you probably wouldn't pick up on it. This girl is also supremely popular at school, incredibly confident and outgoing and general always gets her own way.

Anyway, this little girl has started telling tales on dd. At a party last weekend, I picked them both up and dd was in absolute sobs. This little girl had run to the mother screaming that dd had bitten her. Dd insisted she hadn't and there were no marks on this girl (no-one had seen the incident even though everyone was in the same room which makes me think it is even more likely that it didn't happen). Because of this, dd had been ostracised by everyone else at this party (when I went in the door, the other little girls delighted in running up to me and announcing that dd was a biter!).

Essentially, even at age 6 this child is not told off at all. Dd is getting more and more stressed about this and is terrified of ever telling on this little girl when dd gets hurt by her because the girl is far quicker than dd at coming up with stories and getting dd into trouble (which she hates).

How should I get dd to deal with this?

I should say, in case you think I'm mad!, that this isn't an isolated incident. Essentially, whenever she has done something to dd (like push her over or whack her) when she realises she's about to get told off, she suddenly creates a story about how dd has provoked her (accusations of biting, spitting you name it).

how awful for your little girl. im sorry but i dont have a clue how to deal with this.

i had the same problem in the first year of secondary school. i had a friend who was a tiny, quiet, sweet looking girl who would wait until no-one was looking, hit me and then scream. my other friends would turn around hearing her scream to see me hitting her back, think that i had hit her twice and so they would wallop me too! it ended up that my whole class apart from two girls sent me to coventry for two whole years (and barely aknowledged me after that) . the only thing i can think of is to tell her to keep away from the girl.

thanks for replying. Poor you - I can't imagine how difficult that must have been for you. Girls really can be so horrid. It's awful and I hate to see dd so upset. The problem is that we inevitably bump into them on the way to school.

I thought it was only me who felt this way but another mother invited me round the other day and told me that this girl is doing the same to her girl aswell.

your poor little girl! it's good though that another mother has also recognised this. Is there any way you both can talk to the girl's mum about it? I know she has rosy specs when it comes to her daughter, but wheeling out the word "bully" can have some surprising effects on even the most indulgent parents?

good luck

oh, also meant to say, I reckon it's important to keep reassuring your daughter that she's not doing anything wrong and that it's not her fault. I bet you're doing this already but she really needs to feel that someone's on her side, especially as injustice is really hard for little ones to deal with.
(I have to make a confession here - my ds 16mths was playing at the soft play the other day and a bigger kid was throwing his weight about and menacing the little ones, while his mum and dad smiled indulgently, including mugging my darling little boy of the big soft football he was having lots of fun with...so when he ran past I stuck my foot out. He went SPLAT onto the big soft mat. How bad is that?? I set a bad example to my toddler (who was delighted by the way oops!), I used age and size to get the better of a child, AND I punished a child for his mum and dad's bad parenting. Bad, bad, bad. Felt brilliant though and I consoled myself that my son would probably forget about it.)

I probably don't reassure her as much as I should.

e.g. the party incident - she was so hysterical, I had to take her outside and tell her to stop crying and we would sort it out at home because I couldn't sort it out when I had 12 little girls insisting dd was the devil incarnate (+ the party girl's mother who also told me she hadn't seen the incident herself but had taken the other girl's word for it - 'why would she make something like that up') and hugging little madam. Also, I had to take them both in the car so I made them both be civil, put on pop junior and luckily, it was forgotten till we got home. Then I gave dd a huge hug and told her not to worry.

Unfortunately, she has to learn to deal with this at school. I've told her not to play with this girl if she insists on upsetting her but she seems to be the real trendsetter in the class and although dd is very self possessed and will quite happily play on her own, this little girl is very quick to point out that dd isn't playing with them.

I did have a word with the teacher (without mentioning the other child's name) but she told me that dd was absolutely fine at school!

It is attention seeking behaviour on the part of the child from next door. She knows that she can get hugs from Mum by demonising other children. There is absolutely nothing that you can do about a situation like this, it needs to come from the parents of the little girl themselves. They are storing up immense problems for later years.

Any behaviour of this nature is learned in the early years. Some mums don't seem to be able to accept that sometimes their child is wrong. She clearly loves her daughter immensely, but she isn't doing her any favours. When her daughter gets older she will turn into one of those nasty little brats who no one likes!!

You need to avoid her. I don't know how you will do this, but for your daughter's sake. I had a friend with a very difficult daughter and my little girl hated her so much that in the end I stopped going round when I had her with me. You won't be able to talk to the mother about it because she can't see the wood for the trees.

Good luck , it is a very difficult situation to deal with when you live in such close proximity. Is the mother your friend?

we do a lot of favours for each other but I probably wouldn't consider her a friend. I think you are right. There have definitely been some incidents where I can see the mum looking at me a bit nervously to see how I am going to react. The strange thing is that she will quite happily tell off her other 2 but she really holds back when it comes to the elder girl. I once asked her why and she said it is because the girl is so sensitive - she reads the bursting into tears immediately and demanding cuddles as being sensitive whereas to me, it looks like she is being quite manipulative.

The one and only shining light is that the mum has gone back to work for a few days a week and the new nanny has no problems in doing the telling off when necessary.

In the meantime, I have stopped inviting her round and have told dd to try and play with other girls (especially the one specific girl who has had problems with this girl). I'm hoping the mum might get the hint (I think she has an inkling) but I guess only time will tell.

Thanks for all your help.

hope it all works out potofgold, kids like that usually grow into adults very much the same. its true, her mother is not doing her any favours because one day the big bad world will come to get her! its good in a way that she's done it to another child iyswim.

Oh God I know one of these horrible children. Will watch this thread with interest to see if anyone comes up with any effective solutions, because imo it all comes from their home and the manipulative behaviour they learn from their parents - at least it does in the case of this child I know. So of course, there's no point talking to the mummy about it as little girl has learned the unconscious behaviour from her. It's a nightmare. All I can do is try and keep my children away from her, but it's hard going. One good thing, is that the teachers at my DS's school are intelligent and recognise what's happening, so they discourage it, but as long as parents are blissfully unaware, it will never change.

There was a child like this in DD1's class at this age. Her parents are lovely people and her younger sister, same age as DD2, is lovely too but this one just seemed born with the gift of manipulation. Children like this are very difficult to deal with - if you can manage to get your DD backed off and in friendship groups with others who will then stick up for her it's the most you can do I think.

Some people are just like that.

Teach her to say loudly "I don't like it when you push me. I would like you to stop", and then walk away.

jj

If it isn't an isolated incident and the same thing happens to other children in the class then I think you should mention your concerns to the teacher .. and let it be dealt with properly at school

I would also invite neighbour round for a cup of coffee and be honest with her .. tell her you appreciate how special her DD1 is but that as far as you can see this is what is happening, tell her someone else has mentioned the same thing happening to their child. Make sure you point out how normal the behaviour is and actually quite intelligent (sorry but you have to butter her up about it) .. tell her that if it continues you are afraid that your daughter will mentally scar your child and see what she says

I cannot stress enough that if you don't address this head on .. nothing will change .. waiting for a parent who is 'scared of a sensitive (aka manipulative) child' to do something is pointless

Oh and teach your daughter to say loudly and clearly

"How dare you lie. Don't you know that lying is bad. I did not touch / bite / hit you and you know it"

then walk away with her head held high

teach her to go up to the nearest adult and say "That did not happen. She is lying to make me look bad."

thanks for the advice - I think that's a good idea about teaching her to talk out loudly when something has happened and to walk away.

I have arranged to have coffee with this woman this afternoon to have a chat. I'll see if I can manage to bring it up in the nicest way! She is a bit stressed out at the moment (just back to work, she says she is having trouble with the other two) so I'll let you know how it goes.

Good luck potofgold, I spoke to a parent about her Ds emotionally blackmailing my Ds in yr 2, she was but it was all sorted calmly, with the school,and didn't happen again,I was worried that it might make it worse but it worked.
I think you have to drum into them that they don't have to put up with this behaviour because if they aren't confident it can happen again,as it has with my Ds in yr5!! a girl this time,but i told him to call her bluff,"no i'm not going to do that,tell the teacher if you like, i've told my mum what your doing". It worked!! He is now a lot more confident, because he realized he could stand up to her without getting in trouble.

I agree that telling your dd to speak out and say she doesn't like x y z is a good idea. My dd (reception) has a "friend" who likes to be in charge of the whole class by the sound of it and says who can and can't play with her or be in her team (lots of tears by lots of children). She told dd yesterday that if she had a snack at break then she couldn't play in her team (probably cos she didn't have money to buy a snack) Silly dd didn't have a snack! I try to get her to understand this isn't nice but being in the team is important to her although I now hear more teams are being formed so perhaps a mutiny is on the cards.

If it's happening at school too, then get the teacher involved fast. Explain the problem - it's a delicate one for you because you happen to live next door too. An experienced teacher will have come across this before - the school may even be aware of some of this.

It's to your advantage that another child has had problems too; it doesn't look so much like one word against anothers.

I guess what I'm saying is, escalate it via the school and hopefully they will broach the subject with the girls parents. Keep the pressure up - it's bullying for sure, and cleverly and subtlely done. This needs to be nipped in the bud. The girl has got the idea that being popular and never told off means she can push the limits.

Golly, lots of advice - be careful about speaking to her about it though!! I know someone who spoke to another friend about her son punching the other ladies' son. The mother of the boy then punched my friend in the face and gave her a black eye!! Be warned - a mother's wrath, etc . . .

Shame though, because that little girl is going to grow up into an 'orrible adult. There are lots of these about in my experience, they must have started as vile children and they grow up into vile adults.

well our chat didn't achieve much sadly. Someone said earlier down the post that she picks this up from somewhere and it is definitely the mum . Next week, she has messed up her childcare situation - she normally has a nanny but needs some extra days so rather than paying the nanny extra (which is a possibility), she is hoping that everyone will help her out. She's very much the sort of woman that expects everyone to drop everything for her. I don't know if you know the type? Anyway, next week dh and I are quite busy but I feel no need to explain to her exactly why. She asked if we could help out on one day - we can't and she said, 'oh, so what are you doing' as if 'what are you doing that's so important that you can't help me!'.

It's a difficult situation because I want things to remain civil and she does offer to repay the favours, it's just that things almost always have to be on her terms.

Anyway, we had a brief chat about her dd. She says her dd is having a hard time at school at the moment and made some sort of half-hearted excuse for her behaviour. I'm never going to get through to this woman so I accepted her apology. It won't change a thing, I can see that now. I'll get dd to adopt the managing technique and have a word to the teacher if dd tells me it's been happening at school again.

Well at least you tryed potofgold, your right ,you won't get anywhere with her. Did you finish by saying that if it carries on you will have a word with the teacher? Hope you can encourage your Dd to be strong enough to stand up to her!
perhaps you could start asking other friends round,hopefully it will all blow over,unfortunately for someone else, she will move on to her next victim.
good luck.

You were very brave - it is really hard to criticise someone else's child. Well done for trying to help your daughter even though it probably won't succeed. It is good to think that you have done all you possibly can.