scouts or woodcraft folk?

[fattybum]

Hope it's okay to post this here!

So, which is better, or should ds do both? A few people have told me that scouts is a bit religious, not sure if this is true.

Experiences welcomed!

Thanks

Personally, I would be very happy for the Promise to be reworded to match the Canadian Guides version. Maybe that's because I'm a Brownie leader, where we promise to love our God, so are already a bit closer to the Canadian Promise than the Scouts who (a bit of Googling shows me) promise to do their duty to God.

As for the 2 questions:

As I said, I would be happy to amend the Promise (and have amended it for girls who did not want to say it in its original form) and I don't want to exclude any girl who would enjoy and benefit from being a Brownie. Guiding has changed a lot since I was a Brownie and Guide and it seems that the wording of the Promise is under review.

Even so, I don't think bandying the word inclusive gets us anywhere. Like most voluntary groups, including WF, Scouting and Guiding are inclusive of anyone who supports their general aims. Certainly, I think there's a debate to be had about how far the general aims of Guiding are faith-based and how much the organisation would change if the references to God were removed from the Promise. But, it seems to me, complaining that Scouts and Guides aren't completely secular is a bit like complaining that your child's violin teacher hasn't taught them to play the tuba - that's not (as things are currently set up) what they're there for.

I take the point completely that atheists may feel uncomfortable with the Promise, but in a way that isn't the central problem. Our pack meets rent-free in a church hall. We are therefore literally indebted to the church. Anyone who wants a completely secular experience is going to have to find some accommodation with that, too.

Out of interest, how does WF accommodate people who are out of sympathy with some parts of its general aims? I doubt that anyone would simultaneously want to be a member of WF and (say) Army cadets, but what would happen if they did?

Ah, maud, I did touch on that upthread, and was hoping that one of the lovely woodies pr people would answer. Regretfully no one replied to let me know whether I would be welcome in the woodies or not, what with my military heritage and whatnot.

Having been the accidental recipient of a batch of woodcraft folk emails, I think I know the answer though. presumably what prompted my friend to apologise on behalf of the writers.

That's not to diss the WF. I find their ideals appealing. But I suspect I'm the last person they want tainting the pond water.

The promise is central to whether you become a member or not though, not where you meet.
I have no problem entering churches, why would I? Unless I was a vampire I suppose. ,
So glad no-one in our house does play the tuba though..... the pipes are quite loud enough... oh and the sound of me ranting about promises

Yes, the Promise is central. Our district has recently been told that we can adjust it if girls find the current wording off putting and I don't believe I'm the only leader who has done that. As I said, I think there is scope for a serious debate about changing the wording on a more permanent footing. At the same time, this does raise questions of when a voluntary organisation can or should say "this is who we are and this is what we do".

My point was never about entering a church. It was about accepting their hospitality which (some might think) is hypocritical if one is opposed to organised religion.

Madwoman - I too like the cut of the WF 's jib. Sorry I repeated your (brilliant, obviously) question.

maud I see your point. I am not anti religious just non-religious, so I took it the wrong way, but I agree there are others who would find it a problem. Sad for them if that makes it difficult to enter church buildings.
I think the more people of faith and none work together the better. It worries me that some people think by asking to be included, I am trying to take away theirn right to believe somehow. I would hope diversity would add, so thats why I'd like the promise to change.
Wish my daughter had been in your area

Jeannie - Yes, we are a very groovy Brownie pack.

I agree with you about diversity and not being exclusive - my only reservation (as I said before) is that there can come a point for any organisation where it has changed so much that it loses touch with what is was formed to do or to be. I think we could amend the Promise and not lose the heart of what we do, but others involved in Guiding might disagree with that.

i don't know if that's why the uk are lagging behind? the fact that other countries have done so, and still maintain the ethos and the 'guiding' title suggests that it is entirely possible. that said, there are probably countries with a much stronger religious emphasis as well.

i've not carried out a religion audit of guiding worldwide. i wonder if anyone has?

Really interesting discussion about how much an organisation stay the same if founding principles are changed. I want to say some things about that but first (and I hope not to be seen as evangelising on behalf of Woodcraft!) I want to try and answer the question about what Woodcraft would do if people with different views wanted to join.

Woodcraft expects adult members to sign up to it's aims and principles www.woodcraft.org.uk/aims-and-principles - These are fairly broad and to answer the specific question about somebody who was also a member of cadets I don't feel this would be insurmountable (although I agree it is unlikely). I can reconcile this because I don't think that someone being in cadets is at odds with them believing in the 8th aim (World at Peace) as something to be worked towards but something that we can't assume we have when we don't.

While we ask members to sign up to our aims and principles I don't believe they exclude any particular group just ask to share our broad vision for a better world - how this is to be achieved and interpreted is always a matter of discussion in Woodcraft Folk.

In terms of how changing principles changes an organisation I feel that principles should always be up for change and debate and that this should be the core of a democratic organisation. Young people frequently suggest changes to Woodcraft Folk's aims and principles making it very much a living document that can change at any of our Annual General Meetings.

At any one point in any democratic organisation most people will not find the aims and principles of an organisation completely suited to them but they accept them broadly as part of a democratic organisation where people work together. So to me it is about making an organisation as democratic as you can and empowering the young people involved as much as you can so if the members (young or old) feel the aims and principles need updating they are and systems evolve to the needs of the members.

If you are still with me thank-you for reading and sorry to have gone on so long!

Jack

What a sweet and innocent sounding name. Creepy.

Thank you for that, Jack.

All I would add is that in Guiding too (I can't speak for Scouts) the voice of the girls in deciding what we do is also central to the way we work. Admittedly, we do not revisit our aims and purpose every year (as I gather the WF do) but I am still, I admit, bridling at the implication that Guiding is run on 'girls, do as you're told' lines. It simply isn't.

Sorry if I gave that implication I wasn't trying to - I could only talk from a Woodcraft point of view because that is where my experience is - I would be interested to learn how you work in terms of sharing decisions on a national level (I assume it is similar on a local level with some groups being great and some less so dependent on the group leader and the support they recieve).

Sorry mad and gauny..., I've not been ignoring your questions - I went to bed and then have been at work all day
However, it seems that ComeintoTheGardenMaud has answered everything in a far more eloquent way than I probably could have, so, for the record, I agree with what she has said.
There comes a point, when you have to know what the principals and aims are, and then say anyone who can support those aims is willing to join. Scouts, Guides and Boys and Girls Brigades are based on a principal that having a faith is an important part of life. There is little evidence of organised religion in the vast majority of Scout and Guide meetings, but, as Maud says, a huge number of groups are genrously supported (in low rent or rent free building, in knowledge and guidance for things to do with admin and finance, etc., and sometimes in providing leaders) by Churches and Mosques and Synagogues and Gudwaras. Scouts and Guides are certainly not evangelical in their religious outlook, but a main principal is a belief in something.
I think by using emotive words such as "excluding" you are trying to put up more of a problem than there is. Lots of groups and organisations have a lot of fun doing all sorts of things, but I wouldn't join them because I can't sign up to their principals, but I@m not "excluded" from them, I'm making a choice not to join them because they hold different beliefs from me.

rambling now - I should have just said "What Maud said"

Oh, and nor is Scouts run on a "do as you are told" line either.

Thank you for those kind words, BackforGood.

::salutes::

::wink::

back - 'beliefs' is what i suggested the promise be changed to, a la the canadian guides one that we make here (and that i believe the uk promise will be changed to reflect sooner or later. i posted it upthread somewhere). no mention of god, a god, any god, just a promise to remain true to yourself and your beliefs . nothing that requires any alteration to the aims, policies and procedures of guiding, nor the programme. just a recognition that people have different beliefs that may or may not accord with a religion.

i think you are agreeing with me.

jack - here in canada we have national committees with youth members for specific events and decisions (guiding). my ranger is actually on one of them. and they are currently advertising across the programmes for girls and women who want to take part in shaping the vision of the future. alberta guiding also runs the 'alberta girls' parliament' every year, and i guess it is the same in every province.

i am always interested in how people get elected to these committees though. i assume there is some sort of recommendation or agreement that x is suitable for a national council post. which kinda makes me wonder how democratic it really is - i'm guessing the woodies have a really neat way of deciding. i mean it can't be a truly utopian organisation where everyone has an equal say. what do you have to do to get on the national board? (and yes, i read it on the website lol) i think all organsiations run to the same basic structure, especially voluntary and youth ones. the activities are really the only difference.

I agree with you, Madwoman! There may well be, though, some people in UK guiding who would think that removing the reference to God would fundamentally alter what we are and what we do. There could well be some lively debate around that.

I also agree that, in the end, all large or national organisations - voluntary or not - end up with a hierarchy. Some of those hierarchies are more open and accountable than others, but I've yet to hear of any national organisation where each local branch has complete autonomy to do its own thing.

Last night DS came home ravenous because Scouts sent him on a 5 mile hike. Around town in the dark with torches, DS had the duty of keeping track of newbies. The group had to figure out the route from 6-figure OS references before setting off. Officially no adult chaperones though I expect there was some shadowing going on.
And I really loved scouts for that kind of thing, who else could make a 12yo computer game addict think a 5 mile walk in the cold dark rain whilst minding dozy 10yo peers was great fun?

He has a night hike in summer which includes air rifles & more self-guided torch-lit walks.

I have to agree with ragged My DS has been given so much confidence by going to scouts. He has managed to try activities that he would never have been able to otherwise - he is going paragliding in July!

To be on the national board you have to stand for election (most places at the AGM but a few are elected through DFs - 16-20 year olds which is semi-autonomous in structure and has it's own national committee elected at it's agm) Anyone can stand if they are nominated by either a group or a district (how groups are organised locally) which is pretty easy to do and more to say you have talked to someone else about wanting to stand. The only other criteria is there being at least 4 18-24's standing which started as encouraging younger people to stand and and has become the only way we have of ensuring there are at least 3 18+ year olds that you need for a trustee board. We also have different national committees for different projects, I support a committee of 15 13-15 year olds elected by their peers to support their age group and plan a large camp for next year. We also have two groups of about 20 10+ year olds to help manage a big lottery project we have and this is open to any although we only advertise to specific ages when that age is becoming under-represented.

In terms of non-committee national involvement we have a couple of national and expensed events around particular issues in Woodcraft which tend to have large proportions of young people - we also have our AGM which last year had about 53% delegates under 25 and about 40% under 20. The large camp next year will have about 200 16-25's in roles of responsibility, delivering programme, stewarding, making news about the event etc.

So the reccomendation in most cases is that you have been elected although there are some that are open to everyone and are just open if you volunteer.

I do have a belief in something; in the capacity for good within all people and in their ability to live responsible, purposeful and moral lives without religion, but because that does not have a reference to a supreme being it does not count as a "faith". As mad says with the Canadian promise that is possible. I think it is helpful to talk about being excluded because this is about more than just the promise, its also about the public funding. I choose to join an organisation which says its open to all and is funded as such, yet cannot. Either you are open to all or you are not....if you are not thats fine, but don't try to pretend you are.
On an individual basis woolly notions about 'joining in' and 'no difference' being made don't cut it for a wee girl when everyone else's mummy is there to watch them make a promise, yet you can't because of individual leaders style.......... well in the the less than groovy packs anyway

I don't think we are miles apart on this, Jeannie, but do (respectfully) think you're missing the point about public funding.

I have not been able to find any information on how much public money Girlguiding UK (or WF for that matter) receives, so am just assuming that they do. It is in the nature of public funding that organisations receive grants or other funds that benefit their members, service users or potential service users but don't always directly benefit the wider public, except in the general sense of (arguably) strengthening civil society. It's a bit like the argument about public funding of the arts; I don't stand to gain anything directly from the public funding of (say) a tiny arts theatre 300 miles from my home, but I do gain something from such things being available across the country and not dying out for lack of financial support.

Gaunyerseljeannie - can you show us a link to this public funding you are talking about please ?
My understanding is that Scouts and Guides are funded through membership fees (known as Capitation) which are paid by those who ~ funnily enough ~ are members.
Some groups also benefit financially by not being charged commercial rents by the Churches (etc) they meet in, but I'm not sure about this public money you are talking about.

On the Girlguiding website I found the most recent published accounts, which showed a sum of (from memory) about £75k as grant income. I could not see where those grants came from - possibly not from the government at all.

I attended Woodcraft Folk from the ages of 11-13 ish. My Mum had severe hippy tendencies & there was definitely more than average levels of turquoise jewellery, Birkenstocks & hair jumpers...you could smell the patchouli for miles