scouts or woodcraft folk?

[fattybum]

Hope it's okay to post this here!

So, which is better, or should ds do both? A few people have told me that scouts is a bit religious, not sure if this is true.

Experiences welcomed!

Thanks

I can understand that members of WF want to spread the word about the movement, but there's also a fair bit of misinformation about Scouts (and Guides) going on too.

On the question of empowerment and gender equality.

I run a youth group. The members have a huge (but age-appropriate) say in the activities we do from week to week, and get to pick who amongst them get positions of responsibility. We do lots of work on gender equality, female empowerment, fair trade, environmental and global issues and getting engaged in politics. We have written to the Mayor of London, the Prime Minister and two Presidents about issues that concern us.

They are Brownies.

Woodies all the way (and I say this as a longtime poster on MN not a blow-in )

No way would I have remained in Guides for more than ten minutes as long as I stayed in Woodcraft. Bloody brilliant organisation - the inclusivity, flexibility and the fact that kids are empowered to help run every aspect of their local group and organisation is what accounts for the large numbers of people who stay involved through to adulthood and feel rightly passionate about the organisation.

Woodcraft was literally the ONLY extra-curricular group/activity I could handle as a weird loner slightly eccentric child. I think my more gregarious sister would have flourished in any youth organisation (she is now a Woodcraft leader btw ) but to find somewhere that I could also be myself was much more unusual as I was basically a hypersensitive nutter .

I think there are BIG differences to the underlying ethics / principles.

As a a parent now I would be much happier tolerating the slightly lentil-weavery aspects of Woodcraft than dealing with someone attempting to impose quasi-militaristic / religious "discipline" on small children for fun.

Also, I must admit to being suspicious of anyone capable of uttering the word "woggle" with a straight face.

Grumpla said "As a a parent now I would be much happier tolerating the slightly lentil-weavery aspects of Woodcraft than dealing with someone attempting to impose quasi-militaristic / religious "discipline" on small children for fun."

I'm inclined to agree with you Grumpla, but we aren't talking about an organisation that does that. We are talking about the Scouts. Why are you confusing the inssue by describing something else altogether ?

Grumpla I was a weird loner slightly eccentric child who also went to 8 schools due to having an army dad. Brownies, Guides and later Venture Scouts was always there to welcome me and I don't know how I would have managed without it. I wasn't aware of 'attempting to impose quasi-militaristic / religious "discipline" on small children for fun'. Just lots of fun in the outdoors and days out with my friends.

I'm mildly lentil weavery myself but will be taking my DDs to Rainbows when they are old enough. I hope they get as much out of the movement as I did.

The huge size of the Scouting and Guiding movements offer a huge range of opportunities.

Never lived anywhere with Woodcraft Folk so can't comment on them.

AllegroGirl - That's really nice to hear.

I have the odd lentil-weaving tendency myself and am slightly troubled to be told that I should (apparently) be attempting to impose quasi-militaristic/ religious "discipline" on small children for fun.

As far as I can tell - we do have a local WF group, I know several children who are involved (all having a great time there) and have seen the local leaders in the pub - the only differences between WF and the Brownies (my frame of reference) is that there is no mention of God at WF and WF is much less diverse. Our local group is very white and very middle-class. Apart from those not insignificant differences, the actual activities on offer seem quite similar.

membrillo did you have promise to do your duty to god?
Because thats the real issue here. That in Scouts and Guides there is no alternative promise for those of no faith. You either promise to God or not. If you don't you are not a member. You can go along as an aetheist child, you can join in but you cannot make a promise or be a full Guide like your friends, you can volunteer as an adult committee member but you cannot be a leader. In other words you cannot fully join the organisation at any level. That is what Scout and Guide HQ clearly state if you ask them. ( They will try to avoid answering it mind you)
That is why the funding issue is a big political hot potato because it was granted to a supposedly "inclusive" organisation. Now as atheists we either make a promise we do not believe in ( good example to kids eh?) or we don't get the same rights as those with a religious faith. That is exclusive.
I am not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to get some of the people stating they are atheist and fully involved as members or leaders to tell us how they reconciled that either in their own heads or with their group. It might be useful and help those of us currently excluded

i am finding the idea that scouts are a a quasi militaristic evangelical organisation quite funny.

you lot who are still moaning that the scouts don't accept girls are several years out of date, too.

and v intrigued by the idea that after such an obvious rash of pr posts by the woodies that it's turned yet again into a non existent religion debate.

i was brought up in uk guiding, which is lagging a bit in terms of officially changing the promise et, but in practise is an organisation open to any, all and no religions.

here's our promise etc it stands, and as i susoect the uk will change to when the administratvie wheel turns:

Promise

I Promise to do my best,
To be true to myself, my beliefs and Canada
I will take action for a better world
And respect the Guiding Law

Brownie Promise

I Promise to do my best,
To be true to myself, my beliefs and Canada
I will take action for a better world
And respect the Brownie Law

----------------

Law

----------------

The Guiding Law challenges me to:
?be honest and trustworthy
?use my resources wisely
?respect myself and others
?recognize and use my talents and abilities
?protect our common environment
?live with courage and strength
?share in the sisterhood of Guiding.

i'm fascinated that some of you seem so threatened by a uniform. but given that's the case, then, yes, of course, the woodcraft folk is your natural home.

the 'beliefs' in the promise are deliberately vague. for all i care you can believe the world was created by unicorns. it won't stop you being embraced byt the organisation.

what is this 'exclusion' of which you speak? unless you have a penis, you're more than welcome.

i'd do both. for kicks.

in taht situation, i bet the scouts and guides wouldn't give a monkeys, but the woodies would be desperately uneasy about having such a militaristic and evangelical leader (who has managed to lead several years without so much as a church parade - although we did attend two remembrance day parades on an optional and voluntary basis. some of the kids grandparents died in the second world war.) which would make me wonder who really was the more open and welcoming?

Exclusion as we don't have a promise like Canada!
I didn't have a penis last time I checked but as an atheist I don't wish to make a promise which I can't keep, to something I don't believe in. (especially in a role as an adult in which I should provide an example to children, by the way your experience of UK guiding is different to mine as I was asked to leave Guides at 14 because of my beliefs. I was told I was clearly a person who couldn't keep a promise)
Do you suggest we do just make it anyway so that we can join in? Or do you think the UK should change its promise to be more like Canada's?

Fair enough, my own experience of Scouts /Guides is v limited as I have never been involved as a member of those organisations. However I worked with someone who used to be very high up in the scouts and was a thoroughly creepy bastard to boot. He used to witter on ENDLESSLY about how given that we didn't have national service any more the scouts was the next best thing etc etc etc, should be compulsory for feral council estate kids, he was the only thing between these single-mother-spawned hoodies and eternal damnation etc.

I am sure that you are not all like that but it did colour my judgement somewhat.

I do think that WF as an organisation is more inclusive. For example, to my knowledge Scouts, Guides etc don't have the same level of pro-active support for LGBT kids for example, I know several gay Woodies for whom having that LGBT-friendly space was an invaluable safe haven in their teens. The religious stuff would also bother me - I'm not going to pretend to be religious to get my kids into the "good" school so why would I want them pretending to be religious at a Scouts meeting?

Anyway, i am sure that one thing all of these organisations have in common is that local groups vary enormously depending on the people running them "on the ground" so I will retract my sweeping generalisations forthwith.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I think I will just have to try both and see which one ds prefers!

That sounds like a good idea

I must admit, the one thing that put me off WC folk, was that fact that the parents had to be really involved (running the sessions etc) I much prefer to drop and run at cubs

Grumpla Thank you for admitting your generalisations should be withdrawn.

Re your 3rd paragraph News item here

Chief Commissioner's Blog here

Bit more here

DD 14 has openly gay male friends who are members of adventure scouts, they have no problems fitting in at all.

Incidently DD was the first girl in our pack. She was a cub at the same time as a brownie. She went onto be a guide and a scout but gave up guides a few couple of years ago, but is still a scout.

my reply disappeared into the ether somewhere...

essentially, yes, i think uk will change their stuff to be inclusive, it's just an administrative burden... and eek at your experiences, appalling. some of you really have met up with the more extreme members of the scouting movement in all sorts of ways! must be a bit like my more extreme encounter with the woodcraft folk lol.

i see the 'religious' element in the same way that it's a 'part' of schools tbh. it's about tolerance and acceptance of other people's beliefs - but i know that loads of mners have a real problem with school assemblies because they occasionally contain reference to god or beliefs. i'm not making a value judgement on that, just saying that for me it's not a big deal. and i have no idea why you would need to pretend to be religious at a scouts/ guides meeting. it just wouldn't come up.

i'm fascinated by you being thrown out, jeannie. was there a particular aspect of the programme that you refused to take part in? (presumably something religious) and so it became more of a political thing? i've never heard of anything similar happening, but i guess because things have hopefully changed in the last however many years? (no idea how old you are, sorry) hope so anyway. i'm not sure the leadership now would be keen on exclusion in any form.

I cannot be a member/leader now because I cannot take the promise.
My daughter can't be a guide either because she didn't want to do the promise, she would be allowed to go along to meetings, but not to be a "proper" Guide....
I am ancient so it was in the late 1970's that happened. It might not be so blatant now, but the terms of the promise and its application are very specific. I am still hoping to hear from someone who has actually had experience of overcoming it in a direct way.. ie have these atheist leaders taken the promise or not? Have Guides of no faith just taken the promise anyway and not meant it?

Sorry there was no part of the programme I refused, I just asked if I could be excused from the church parade as I didn't believe in god anymore... and to coin a christian phrase all hell broke loose.

i'm all for a bit of direct action - can absolutely see that tacit acceptance is the easy way out, and actual change needs someone brave enough to stand up and say 'oi, this is a bit daft in this day and age. get it changed!'

happily we have no moral dilemma like that here.

i'm ancient, too, to be fair. and tbh it was only very recently (and c/o mn, natch) that i realised that the uk still hadn't got rid of the god malarkey in terms of underlying principles. i quite like the staying true to your personal beliefs stuff in the canadian promise. whatever they happen to be.

my current issue is the fact that we meet in a building which requires climbing 8 stone stairs to get in or out. and tonight we are looking at accessibility. that and the miss canada shite, obv.

Ahhh
Canada is closer to Utopia though.. spent summer in Ontario last year and would give my eye teeth to emigrate... and join Guide , you even have legal Humanist weddings.. just as civilised as Scotland!!
Good luck building the ramp...............

Really feel the need to comment. I am a thirty year old woman who was a rainbow, brownie, guide, venture scout, sout network member and a scout leader for last seven years. I have travelled the world with scouts and gained many nationally a recognised awards as well as countless priceless experiences and memories! I met my husband through scouts, he's a beaver leader! We now have young children that come to all activities with us!

I have never found scouting anything other Than totally inclusive! At a summers camp a few years we met three Muslim scout groups with many members we had something great in common we were all scouts! Our group does have church parade once a month but children do not have to attend, it is encouraged though! The promise states love my god, this is inclusive to all religions. There is no question scouting is a faith organisation but what is wrong with that? It's an organisation steeped in tradition but very much moving with the times mixing the best of both in my opinion!

My life is all the better for scouting. I have 45 scouts in my troop, 10 girls and thirty boys! The numbers speak for themselves! X

Look ruby your post says it all; it is inclusive to people of faith not to those of none. That is why you can behefit from it..... and my kids and I can't
I would like to be able to experience what you have.... without making a false(to me) promise.
Do you think that is right?

My answer to that would be that you are free to start your own Youth Movement, based on your principals, just as Baden Powell did 105 years ago. If it's as good, then people will flock to it.
All optional things - which nobody has to join - are free to decide what principals they needs to abide by. Depending on the age of your dc, there are just sooooooooooo many things they can join.... clearly Woodcraft Folk, St John Ambulance sections, Air Cadets, CCF, etc., youth clubs which are Council run, Youth clubs which are church run, youth clubs which are community run. Clubs which specialise in one interest areas (drama, swimming, karate, etc.,etc.,etc.)
Hundreds of Thousands of young people thrive in organisations like Guiding, Scouting and Boys and Girls Parade, and there are thousands more on the waiting list, so I suggest they must be offering something that a lot of people want.

would you not support a change in the promises based on being true to your 'beliefs' rather than any mention of god, my god, gods etc, then?

it seems strange that children miss out on such a fantastic opportunity due to something that really isn't a staple in the organisation these days?

back for good Yes they are offering something people want. Why do you sound like we want to challenge that?
Far from it we want to join in and we can't, because we are excluded. The Scouts and Guides are excluding people, yet claiming they are inclusive but still getting government funding on that basis. Your answer sounds like you think that is right.
Thanks madwoman its nice to have someone actually responding to the point raised.
backforgood and others of all faiths and none, can you answer these questions;

1. Do you think its right to call a group inclusive of all when it is not?
2. Would you agree an optional promise for those of no faith would be a good idea?

OP I am sorry I think I am hi-jacking your thread. What is the etiquette, should I start another? I just think you raised such a good point in such a straightforward way with a straightforward decision, that its good to keep it running here?

Please Hi-jack away! I'm finding the debate quite interesting without having anything to add.

Will be trying out WF in two weeks, not heard back from scouts yet.

I have no faith so would find it strange having to make a promise to any god!