Am I worrying unnecessarily? Please help - sorry it's a bit long

[earthtomummy]

DS is 4.5. He has two sisters, 2.5 and 8mos. He didn't really talk until he was 2.5ish and properly communicate and interact until he was 3 and really when he started pre-school. I posted something y'day in the SN section about school's concerns about his fine motor skills. He's cross-dominant and hasn't chosen which hand to use yet. He can't hold a pencil or write at all. He also struggles sometimes with sequences of nos. and sees 9 as 6. But something that concerns me more is how he plays with other children. I basically DREAD play sessions. From experience I try to not build them up or make them a big deal beforehand. But apart from 2 friends, he is quite hostile - at times - v. hostile to friends who come to play. He'll either go off alone or be over the top silly, rude (poopoohead) and sabotage the other child's play. Frankly at times DS mayas well not be here during play sessions because he doesn't interact at all - or if he does it's negative. He's always been socially awkward - groups, birthday parties etc were a nightmare. But he always says he wants friends to come round and gets upset if they don't. He's a sweet boy but I can't help wondering what other mums must think. Also I find it hard to involve him in activities with me like lego, cooking etc. I can't help but notice that when I look after his best friend every wk, he is so easy to interact with. I mean, y'day's play session was with a 4yo we live opposite and who he walks to school with most days and sees at pre-school most days. But he was still hostile. Only with 2 of his friends can I relax but if all 3 get together he gets excluded quickly. I feel so upset. Something doesn't feel quite right. And somehow I feel really guilty that it's my fault. Sorry to go on.

is ds awkward when he goes to friends' houses, or is it a lot worse in his own home? And how does he get on with his sisters?

Hi Tickle. He's okay when he goes to his 2 best friends' houses. Otherwise he's unpredictable. Can be v. sweet and interactice, can be sullen, stubborn and a tad physical - aggressive. I've just asked my sister what she thinks. Her DD is 7 and DS is 5 and her and her DH are both in education. They think that something is not quite right. She thought that at times she thinks there's nothing wroing, but gen. both her and her DH think there is a problem with social skills and communication. I really wanted an honest answer, but I feel floored by it. My mumsaid a similar thing and I don't want there to be a problem. I'm just having a s**t day and can't stop crying.

Look, he might have some Aspergers traits. I expect that is what is frightening you. If so, he won't be unique and it needn't be a disaster. He is very young and his social skills can be learned and developed as he grows older. My ds has dyspraxia, and with that there are some Asperger's type traits - particularly social clumsiness. He can be incredibly interactive and socialises well one on one, but groups are hard work for all of us. This is quite a new development. These traits were not at all obvious early on, and he's definitely not autistic, but yes, he has problems with social interaction.He's still clever and lovely and imaginative and gorgous. If there is something 'wrong' with your ds it's not your fault. But you can help and guide him.
Why don't you talk to your HV or GP about this? Or his Senco at school and get to see a developmental paediatrician. You can't feel worse than you do now, I suspect.

poor you - it's horrible to feel that there is something wrong. I know quite a few young lads, friends of my ds, sim age, who have big problems sharing & interacting in their own homes... but it sounds from what you say that there may be something more to it.

Poor communication & inablility to express themselves can be very frustrating, and his sullenness or unpredictability may be his coping strategy.

My ds (5) had to cope with a move to a new country, and going to nursery in a foreign language, and we are just getting over continual pants wetting... altho general bahavious didn't suffer. He went to a speech therapist organised by nursery, and that helped his confidence a lot.

With the lego, cooking etc in your original post... Is it that he is not interested, or gets frustrated quickly?

I can't really offer any great advice, but sending lots of sympathy - hope someone else has something more concrete to say

*behaviour

Can see aloha has some very constructive advice

I agree with Aloha's post. It sounds as though he may have some AS traits but not necessarily AS. He is still young and a lot can be done to help him.

It may be worth asking for a referral to a Developmental Paediatrician and they will hopefully be able to give you a clearer picture about what (if anything) the problem might be.

I have a 5yr-old who has high-functioning autism. Some of your comments sound familiar. Ds1 started to speak at around 3yrs but didn't 'get' communication straight away. He didn't like other children to play with him as he didn't like the way they used the toys or change the rules of the games. He had poor fine-motor skills as his hands were incredibly sensitive and he avoided using them or getting them dirty. He had a lot of help from the pre-school and school staff and is now doing really well.

If there is a problem then it really isn't your fault. Sometimes the wondering whether or not there is a problem is 100 times worse than actually getting a diagnosis. At least with a diagnosis you have an idea of what you're dealing with and can plan stategies accordingly.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

earthtomummy - how are you? What do you think?
BTW poopoohead is a very popular term at ds's nursery!

Hi - sorry. Involved in long conversation re. DS with DH. He has talked to a colleage who suggested Dyspraxia, but we're both reluctant to start applying labels at such a young age. DH seems v. resistant to accepting there's an issue, but my instinct strongly tells me something - however subtle - isn't adding up. Sorry if I semed melodramatic. It'sbeen a stressful wk and with the other 2, I auppose I don't feel I give DS the time he needs. Plus just discovered he has threadworm. Not pretty. DH works with kids in CAMHS and is frusrsating in that he is being (reasonablY) objective and trying to see us like one of his families, but doesn't seem to realsie how stressful DS' behaviour can be - esp. because I have DD who is 2.5 and DD who is 8mos. Play sessions are must not that straightforward and he's coming up with stuff that's great in principle but a nightmare to realistically apply.
Going to have a good night's sleep and get some perspective. DS's behaviour isn't a constant, which i understand it should be for As to be ocnsidered. Am i right.

Um, not really, I think. Like all kids, children with Aspergers or dyspraxia or anything else can have good and bad days.
I think 'labels' can help because a/ you move from the panicky position of wondering and not daring to face up to things and b/you can start looking for help and accessing all sorts of specialist advice and activities. When we started out looking at dyspraxia, ds became eligible for a sort of special physiotherapy type of TumbleTots, where he has fantastic access to the local gym equipment, but with kids with his level of ability (and worse) and specialist encouragement and input from the fantastic team of physios and OTs. He loves it, he really does.
Also, when he goes to school, he will - I hope - get support and recognition that his problems are not laziness/stupidity/naughtiness but part of the dyspraxia.
I don't think you are being in the least big melodramatic. It is scary and upsetting to thing there is something 'wrong' with your beloved child. but you know there is something different about him, and you know him better than anyone. I really do believe that mothers can tell and you should listen to your instinct.
The fantastic thing about looking into a diagnosis at this age is that it really opens doors to finding ways to help him, and there is a lot that you can do to help.

I haven't posted on this yet as I didn't feel I had anything to add until now. I fully agree with Aloha's post, labels can really help as they can be the key to getting the help needed which can make a huge difference. So far she has had a course of OT and physio, would have had speech therapy but she started practising under the guidance of the physio and didn't need it. She has a special board and pencil for writing, one on one help with the SENCO to improve her writing, the class do Brain Gym in PE, the Learning support Assistant has scribed for her in the past or she's used a tape recorder, a diagnosis was the key for all this. The hope that we all have is that by the time she goes to middle school it will be much less of an issue with all the early intervention. However if it's not, things will be put in place to make the transition as easy as possible and she will probably be able to use a computer if she still struggles to write at that point. I also don't think you're being melodramatic, it's very hard to begin to face the fact that your child might have some kind of special need - I had just had DS 6 weeks before I went to a first parent's evening and realised there was a problem. I then spent the next goodness knows how many weeks randomly bursting into tears. I have to say that when I first read your post dyspraxia immediately sprang to mind. My DD (6) has it and was diagnosed after she entered reception and since she has had her diagnosis and extra help she has made amazing progress.

I can relate to feeling guilty, I think it's probably a normal reaction and also to the gut instinct bit that something isn't quite right - when I really faced up to things I realised that I'd always felt DD was slightly "out of synch". My DH took sometime to take on board that there was a problem but is completely fine about it and I think we do both feel relief to know why things can be so difficult. I suspect when you say that he doesn't realise how stressful your DS's behaviour is it's because you have automatically adapted and compensate in ways that shields your DH from the full effects of it if that makes any sense. I keep harping on about them on various threads but there's something called a Yoropen that can be very helpful for children having difficulties with writing.

Thankyou so much everyone. feeling a bit better today and I'm interested in what Aloha was saying about labels. I can see your point. At what point would we think about looking for an assessment? Where do you go? To be honest, if we weren't caught in the nightmare that is our educn system, where children are expect to learn to read and write so young, some of this would be less of an issue. My Dtch friend can't believe English schooling. Did any of you consider Steiner schools - not that I know that much about it. Also with Dyspraxia, was it evident really early or did it become more noticeable. What are the main things?

ds' motor skills/social issues (not diagnosed but dyspraxic tendencies) definitely became more noticeable as time went on, most obvious by around 5 when his teacher recognised it. He hit most early milestones but looking back sensory and motor skill problems were there probably from around a year.

Playing in groups, sequencing and socialising with unfamiliar children can be really hard for him and he doesn't cope well deviating from his routine and expectations. He is 7 1/2 now and is approximately 1 year behind in Social/Personal skills and and 12-18 months behind in motor skill development according to Paediatrician who did a Griffiths test on him.

LizS Thanks. Sounds v familiar. DS has hit most early milestones but everything you mention is a problem - esp. socialising with unfamiliar people and in groups. Got to dash - teatime awaits. What help did your DS get? Who diagnosed it?

I cornered the HV and insisted on a referral. Went to the child development centre, got him seen by a physio and OT and also by a specialist paediatrician (there were a few stages to this).
I think actually the physical stuff in dyspraxia can be less of a problem than the emotional/social things. Self-esteem can become an issue which is why IMO it can help to have all the support systems in place ready. That way if your ds's difficulties aren't problematic, then it's OK, but if they are, then you have systems in place ready to help him.
I think some people do find Steiner schools or other forms of alternative education are very helpful for their children with these kinds of special needs, but I also know that many children can thrive in mainstream schools If they have the right support, and normally, to access that, you do have to look into getting your child assessed. And that's MUCH more painful for the parent than the child tbh.
Social skills can be taught, explained and practised at home and school btw, and can make a huge difference.

Aloha, I would agree that the social skills are more problematic and, as he gets older, his peers are more aware and it is more striking. Sometimes I think, what am I worrying about, he's fine. But I know Ds is v. sensitive and already aware that the rest of his pre-school group can write their names in the morning on arrival etc. and he can't. I'm not sure I handle it well all the time. i suppose that DH and I are both v. academic and succeeded really well at school and university. I suppose I always evisaged my kids would - not that it means much to me whether or not they do. Ultimately all I want is for DS to be happy and have good friends and relationships and to enjoy school - because I didn't really. Ds is just sweet and funny and his imagination knows no bounds. He loves his books and telling me fantastical tales. He just can't seem to process some stuff the way other children do. When do you think we should start pushing for an assessment - he's only 4.5. I thought I might mention our thoughts to his teacher,who was going to discuss his fine motor skills with the Senco. At school he's broadly meeting his targets and seems to socialise okay, so I'm worried she'll think I'm some nightmare neurotic parent. Perhaps I am imagingin things, but both DH, myself, my sister, her DH and my mum sense something slightly differest about my DS. Sorry to go on. In some ways having a diagnosis of something would help because it would offer some explanation of his social behavour in some situations - like roaring at strangers at a wedding we went to, in a fairly hostile way. (It was q. embarrassing!!).

When ds was initially identified as having such problems by his teacher he was already 5 1/2. She monitored it more closely and he was 6 by the time he was assessed by an Occupational Therapist and Sensory Integration therapy recommended - fortunately we were abroad at the time and there was one attached to the school who could start his sessions fairly immediately. He really enjoyed this one to one attention and it helped him make progress. However he would certainly have benefitted from being seen earlier and he only had it for about 15 months as we moved on.

Since returning to the UK this summer he has had an assessment with the Community Paediatrician (referred by GP)and is now on the OT waiting list. We have also seen a Cranial Osteopath who thinks she can help a little with physical tension but thinks his main problems are neurological.

Oh dear earthtomummy, I laughed when you said about the roaring ! Only because my DD had a habit of going up to people, putting her hands up, pulling a face and roaring - very embarrassing ! The social skills are the thing that worries me the most. I went to parent's evening last week and voiced my concerns to both her teacher and the SENCO, who is going to see what she can find on social skills training. She is now not too bad at starting friendships but I feel she finds them hard to maintain and ruminates not very healthily over things that are said to her and to be honest I'm finding that bit quite hard to deal with. She does get invited to play after school but I think a large part of that comes from the mother's I'm friendly with and I know in time as she makes new friends I will be unable to influence her friends as I have in the past and I feel that the social gap between her and her peers will widen.

My DD was assessed by the SENCO in the October after starting school after I voiced my concerns to her teacher. The SENCO agreed that she needed a referral so she saw the community paed. who then referred her to the co-ordination clinic. She had an hour and a half assessment where they did a variety of tests and diagnosis of dyspraxia, hypermobility, low muscle tone & speech and language delay was finally. She was very aware that she couldn't write her name so as it has 9 letters I discussed things with the teacher and we agreed to use a short version to make it less challenging (DS has a name with a 3 letter shortened version after that disaster !)

She met her early milestones but looking back things like lumpy food were an issue, then after about 14 months she started not to meet them - jumping took until she was about 3 and a half, she couldn't pedal, couldn't hold the scissors, immature drawing. She was highly imaginative though and spend hours pretending to be different characters, so I told myself that the pencil grip etc would come in good time, in fact I was quite mortified to realise how awful her grip actually was when she started school - but I felt that we started them too early with formal education and really hadn't taken a lot of notice of that.

DH and I are also both academic and what you put in your last post I could have written. I've had to do some hard thinking about the unspoken expectations my Dad had of me and realised I was unwittingly following in his footsteps. There's a good book by Madeleine Portwood which is worth reading.

Thanks Kittypickle -glad I raised a laugh. At least he hasn't recently stroked anyone and then gone on to sniff his hand! I've just read lots on-line re dyspraxia and realised a lot fits - down to me having to cut clothes tags out of everything he wears. My biggest concern is perr-group relations, because, as you say, at the moment it is my friendship with mums that influences who he plays with and ensures that contact continues. It fels like it's been a stressful w/e but you've all been so nice and reassuring, so thankyou. At least i might start to be able to piece together some of DS' difficulties and make sense of them and help him.

Yes, my ds is also funny, highly imaginative, adores books, reading, making up stories - is really passionate about books and stories. But still finds jumping a problem, cannot dress himself etc etc - sometimes he's so SLOW it drives me mad!
I also recommend getting the Madeleine Portwood book as a starting point, and also considering starting your son on fish oils such as IQ.
Your GP is a good starting point for starting assessment, and talk to the SENCO about dyspraxia too.
It isn't the end of the world, it really isn't.

earthtomummy and kittypickle - I'm so glad I read your posts! Since he was very small I've felt there was something 'different' about my DS1, but since he started reception in September these worries have increased. So much of what you say also applies to him. He is imaginative and funny, loves books and stories and is getting on well with early reading at school. He has a wide and very adult vocabulary, but his speech becomes rather jumbled and disjointed if he's excited or tired. His teacher says she has to stop him sometimes in 'show and tell' time because he just rambles on and on... He's very sociable with adults and good in small groups, but finds the whole playground situation a bit much to take - there's a lot of play fighting amongst the boys which he wants to join in with, but I get the feeling that he doesn't quite get the rules. For example, he gets upset if someone chases him, even though he's been encouraging it a minute before! His teacher has said that his personal organisation and concentration are poor, and although he can write his name and draw simple pictures, he actively avoids these activities whenever possible. Like your DS, earthtomummy, he hasn't decided on a hand preference yet.

My concern is whether to get him assessed or not. So many of the early things he was behind with have come with age (jumping, pedalling etc) though he's still behind his peers physically. I read an article about boys who are late to decide a hand preference which suggested that if the pressure to write was taken off, they would catch up. I do wonder, as someone else has written,whether many of our sons' problems are caused by the ridiculously early age that they are expected to read and write.

On the other hand, I don't want him to miss out because I was hiding my head in the sand...

Oh yes, and like you I'm university educated and always expected to have academic children! Am starting to learn there are more important things in life - my son is a happy, contented, charming child who I wouldn't change for the world.

earthtomummy, Aloha has hit the nail on the head, it honestly isn't as bad as it probably seems at the moment. It was parent's evening last week and it was incredibly positive.I'm pretty certain my DH has dyspraxia, he bumps into objects that aren't even there pretty much, bless him ! However, he's got a couple of degrees and a very responsible job. Another Mumsnetter who is a long standing friend of mine is also pretty certain she has dyspraxia. Again she's got a degree under her belt, is busy studying for a masters and has certainly cracked the social thing !I'd also second the fish oils as we have noticed quite a difference when we manage to get them down DD. The label thing is interesting, I'd forgotten about that, DD hated them when she was smaller. She also hates having her hair brushed and can't cope with loud noises. We stupidly took her to a firework display last night as it said that it was going to be a quiet one suitable for all ages - what a complete nightmare that was. It was really loud and she completely freaked out. I guess as she gets older the sensory thing will become less of an issue.

The main thing I have found is to boost her confidence and self esteem as much as possible. The SENCO pointed out that when children are bright (as a lot of children with dyspraxia are) they do cotton on pretty quickly that they aren't as able as some of their classmates and are prone to low self esteem. We've been trying to boost this as much as possible and at a couple of friends' suggestion tried the local drama group. It's been brilliant - appeals to her drama queen tendencies and has boosted her confidence loads. As they get older I think it's easier to find other things for them to do other than sports club.

The other thing we've done is started her with piano lessons. It was something she asked to do after playing on a friend's. I was keen for her to do it when she asked as it occurred to me that it would be a great way of getting auditory feedback from the pressure she exerts (she finds it very hard to know how much to press down on her pencil) and that it would also help her to cross the midline, which she struggles to do. I think, though it's hard to tell that it has helped her concentration.

Sphil, I do completely understand your feelings about a lot of it being caused by the ridiculous pressure put on them at a young age and I agree. However, being a bit further down the line, I am pleased that we acted when we did as I think DD has benefitted no end from the help and it's made things easier for DH and I - I no longer get so fustrated (I always tried hard to hide it, but I'm not sure I always managed). It is early days for him at school - what about waiting until after Christmas and seeing how he is and how you feel about it then ? It will give you a bit of time to think and do some more reading.

Agree with Kittypickles posts. I also think I am pretty dyspraxic myself, but I am fine as an adult - degree, interesting career, happy marriage, friends, lovely children.
And I think ds may well be academic himself - he is definitely bright. I think self-esteem is important and I tell him all day how clever and kind and loveable he is. The jumbled speech and the going on and on certainly ring bells with me re ds!
I am also considering piano lessons.

Hi everyone. Met with DS' teacher today, hoping she'd reassure me that all is well. She didn't. She said DS has been struggling for some time and is not meeting many of his goals. she wants the Senco to see him and to put an education action plan in place and thought that the area of dysprraxia was along the right lines. She said we should seek an assessment from a paediatrician too. I feel glad that she agreed that something's not quite right, in that it means something can be done, because DS is noticing his differences. But I feel so sad and can't explain better than that. DS can be quite hard work and I have DD of 2.5 amnd of 8mos. I just feel wiped out today and very tearful. Stupid I know. Those of you with dyspraxic children, how are your kids managoing at school and socially. does dyspraxia alter as they grow up or become more obvious. I've got to go now - and be the rock to DS' anaconda!! More fun than lego i suppose!!

earthtomummy, no you are not stupid, that sounds a perfectly normal reaction to me, but the sadness does pass. At the end of the day he is still your same fun loving, imaginative ds whether the has other problems or not but I'll admit it took several weeks for me to start to recognise this and his abilities rather than his problems.

ds (7) is certainly aware of the differences but he has done really well recently. We moved country, he has had to adapt to a much stricter school regime and make new friends an we are proud of the way he has coped with it all. You do learn to accept them for what they are and can achieve and sometimes they'll surprise you. Your ds has probably already developed coping strategies himself to deal with some of the problems he's recognised. Any help you are able to get at school or OT will build upon this and give him more self confidence to try new things out

Occasionally the differences between ds and his peers do become poignantly obvious though. We were at friends' house on Saturday for fireworks. ds was fine when it was just him, dd and friends' dd who he goes to school with and knows well, but as soon as the other children arrived and were all mucking around together, playing games, dancing and chasing he withdrew and became all protective to dd playing with a doll's house. He is only just riding a bike but won't do so now because much younger children in our road are way more confident. If you push him beyond his comfort zone he'll become bad tempered and difficult. Most of the time people comment that they wouldn't pick him out of a group as having issues though so perhaps as parents we look with a more critical eye ?

hth

Yes it does! Thankyou. Particlularly identified with the bit about pushing him beyond his comfort zone. DS can be v.v difficult when that happens, so don't know how he'll cope with reception next yr. DS didn't like the fireworks, either!