To Smack or not to Smack

[Tigger2]

Henry McLeish, Scotlands First Minister is trying to put a Bill through that children under the age of 3 should not be smacked. What are everyones views on this. And do you think this will lead to a total ban on smacking altogether?

I totally agree it should be illegal to hit children. I would never (I hope) hit my son. That's mostly because my parents used to smack my brother and me for all sorts of things, and I've never really forgiven them for the resentment and humiliation and lack of control I felt when it happened. I also felt unloved when I was hit (unsurprising, really). It is something that will always come between us and means I am very reluctant to let my mum look after my son on his own - she loves him, but I haven't forgotten and I haven't truly forgiven either, despite trying. I even had it out with her as an adult, which shocked her, I think - and upset her. I think we believe our children will forget our actions and everything will be OK in later life, but physical violence (yes, I do think smacking is physical violence) can spoil your relationship forever, & I am proof. I wish they hadn't done it & I'd hate to feel my son ever felt that way about me because I basically abused my power as a parent. I also agree with the mum who said making children eat food they don't like is another abuse of power. I have a fantastic step-daughter of ten who has never been hit (or forced to eat food she doesn't like) and is beautifully behaved and polite and enjoys her veg!

Star, my dh is a psychologist/neuroscientist researching learning and motivation so Skinner's principles are oft-quoted in our house! Luckily this means dh has no logical grounds to question my anti-smacking stance! Mind you, I do find ignoring some behaviour difficult,e.g. I can't stand ds's (15m) fascination with the bin, but he definitely watches for my reaction when he goes to it (and giggles) so Skinner is definitely onto something.

My nephew is 5, and is prone to sudden outbreaks of violence - he will just hit his (older) sister out of the blue, or his uncle (DH). Not me, as I suspect I'm not one of the people he wants attention from. We're not sure what to do about it - his mum has never had much success disciplining him and has, to tell the truth, a very inconsistent approach. But we find it quite upsetting when he just whacks his sister in front of us when we're babysitting. If we say, "Don't do that" he just says he's sorry and he didn't mean it - and will do it again an hour later. He is also a mammoth sulker and whenever he is upset with something will just run off - even when we are in the park - so then he has to be chased and told to come back. He also seems attracted to trouble - when told not to approach the lawnmower in bare feet will promptly take his shoes off and try and poke his fingers in the blades. In fairness, his sister is an expert torturer (typical older sister) and can be quite mean to him. Is this just normal attention-seeking behaviour from a five-year old boy? Or is there something wrong?

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I agree with you Bloss. As someone who vowed never to smack before I had my child but who has, I feel really uneasy about the times when I have done so. However, I know my daughter is far more scared of my shouting, as am I.

Wells1 - sorry that you feel you are proof that smacking damages. I was smakced frequently as a child, it was just the standard form of discipline - and I'm not talking about being beaten up. I was a horribly cheeky, insolent child. But it has never occurred to me that I should forgive my parents for it. I'm certainly not advocating 'never did me no harm', I certainly aspire to be a non-smacker, so maybe that is the effect. But, never felt unloved as a child. Similarly, I tell me own daughter fairly constantly that I love her - but then, maybe, that's guilt about the shouting!

Star, although our implementation of Skinner's principles happened by accident I've found that it has made DH and I think much longer and harder about what behaviour is tolerable and when we expect the kids to start understanding/learning. I know from interaction with friends and posts here on the site that we are very laid back, there are very few things that are forbidden or expected but (touch wood) kids are well-behaved, confident etc and we seem to have very little conflict in our day-to-day lives.

I am very shocked at how young some of the kids being smacked are, sorry to offend anyone but babies don't set out to wind you up, it's all a game to them so not joining in does tend to stop the behaviour, maybe not once and for all immediately, but you get there in the end. Sorry, I'm an educational psychologist in real life so might be a bit left-wing/hippiesh

Hi. I actually don't think I was smacked (usually a slap round the legs - not beating with a belt or anything) more than most/many when I was growing up in the early Sixties, but I certainly resented it mightily. I'm definitely not saying that everyone who was hit as a child (or hits their own child) will have a poor relationship with their parents/child in later life because we are all different and love can make up for a lot, but I do know (from personal experience) that it is a risk you take, and it's not one I want to take with my own child. I do think that we all believe that our children will forget the way we treated them when they become adults, but what is coming over very loud and clear from this fascinating thread is how vividly we recall our own childhoods and how quite a few of us still feel resentful for the way our parents used their superior strength against us. Of course you have to use your size advantage when it comes to forcing a child to be buckled into his car seat when all else has failed, but the big difference seems to be that nobody would look back as an adult and think that was wrong or cruel, but quite a few of us feel that about being hit as children. If anyone hit me now, I wouldn't tolerate it and I wouldn't forgive, and maybe I was a precocious child, but I felt just the same at six or seven. Mind you, I even remember being told off for accidentally breaking a dish and yelling back, 'It's not fair. Nobody tells you off when you break something'. And do you know what, I think I had a very good point! I used to do a lot of babysitting and nannying, and of course, I couldn't hit the children no matter how vile they were - and believe me, some were. My strategy was to ignore bad behaviour as completly as I could (even fighting and throwing non-breakable things) and lavishing praise and attention on them when - and only when - they calmed down. This worked brilliantly 99% of the time. One particularly horrible pair of brothers just had parents who both worked full time on their own business and had no time for them at all. They were attention seeking the whole time by fighting. But when they realised they could get attention and be played with and be helped with their Lego Space Station by being nice, they were nice. Mind you, I did yell when another child was poised to bash his sister with a metal crazy golf club. I yelled, took away the club, cuddled and praised her a lot and wouldn't let him play any more. It seemed to work and there were no more murder attempts.

At the moment I couldn't ever imagine smacking DD. I find it upsetting when she falls over and knocks herself - feel like I've pushed her ! It's ridiculous ! I tell you what, does anyone wonder / worry about the amount they hit their heads ? We have wooden floors at home and the other day she was sitting up with the nanny and she fell very quickly and hit her head (she's only 7 months) and I worry like mad about the damage it will do especially when you know that kiddies die when people abuse them / shake them so I worry about her knocking her head if shaking a baby can kill them surely bashing their heads must be bad ?

I wonder if smacking is worse for the child at certain ages? I'm not talking about smacking a baby here. I know my memories of my early childhood are very patchy. I can't remember much that happened to me until I was three or so. Then I remember impressions, not events. I start to remember events and conversations far more clearly from age 6. Perhaps this is to do with my better vocabulary.

Anyway, although I smacked my son (not much) age three to five, I did not feel as guilty about it as I did from five onwards. He is nearly eight now and I have pretty much stopped smacking him. I have proved to myself that other types of discipline and reward work better for him. Yet, it is not just this that has put the brakes on me smacking him. It is also the growing realisation that he could remember the incident for better or worse right into adulthood. A single light slap to a three or four year old seems to me to be less likely to be remembered and brooded on.

I am sure smacking plays on different children's minds in different ways. And is remembered by their adult selves in different ways. This thread proves that. What is traumatic to one child is less so to another( not talking about a seriouls beating).

I have a confession to make, and an observation. I have never slapped my toddler, age two and a half. However, he has been seriously playing up at bedtime recently - coming down the stairs twenty times, sitting with us, going back up, calling out, taking his nappy off, etc etc. Testing the boundaries in other words.

After running upstairs to put him back in bed for the umpteenth time, I said to him, unthinkingly 'I'm going away now and I'm not coming back again'. His face immediately crumpled and the tears lasted for half an hour. He had taken my word literally, was deeply upset and needed lots of cuddles, which he got!

By the time he was happy again, it was after 10.00 pm. My husband read him a book, sang him a lulluby and the little imp still climbed out of bed. So my husband gave him a controlled slap on his bottom and firmly said bedtime. No tears came forth, which utterly surprised me. The toddler stayed put and was asleep in five minutes. I don't think the slap did this - I think the toddler just tired himself out, but interestingly it was my thoughtless words, not the slap that really upset him.

Tillysmummy - I wonder too! I worry, as we also have wood floors and DD (11 mos) is constantly bonking her head as she crawls around, and occasionally topples over! Last night I was sitting on the floor right next to her, and BONK! I feel terrible, and wonder if when she is all grown up we may be saying things like "see what happens when babies bump their heads...!"

Florenceuk - my nephew and niece are exactly the same! My nephew used to smack his little sister on the head constantly, throw his toys at visitors, hit out at people and stamp on things in temper. My sister has never been very consistent with punishment either. She does smack them, but this usually has no effect at all. My niece used to be a very pleasant and smiley baby, now she is a little demon, she also hits out, she will throw toys around, she will bully my little one and will call me all sorts of names if I tell her off. Her mother usually says "If you do that again I will...." but the action never follows the threat so the kids generally run riot. There is not a lot you can do about it unfortunately, it's really up to them. Some hope is that my nephew is now 7 and has calmed down quite a lot, he is still very naughty, especially with his sister, but if left alone he will now play quite happily. I only hope that yours turns out the same - but you have my sympathies!

Tillysmummy - I have wooden floors too and dd used to fall and smack her head on them. But after a couple of nasty falls, she seemed to realise the danger very quickly and so her falling improved, if that makes sense! She learnt to put her hands in front of her or fall on her bottom. She is now 20 months old and has no long-lasting damage from any falls - I hope! They do learn quickly, don't worry about it!

Tigermoth you mentioned kids' memories of smacking. Of all the people I know who were smacked as a child, every one of them can remember almost every smack, what it was for and how it made them feel. That's not the sort of memories I want to give my child. I wonder if anyone here remembers any other sort of punishment and the effect it had on them?

Joanne I know it's terrible isn't it ! I feel so awful when she falls. It makes me want to cry. And I'm sitting next to her but it happens so quickly sometimes. I don't want to be overprotective and I'm sure she will learn.
Rhubarb I think you're right she will learn a little later. The problem now is she is only 7 months and although she sits well sometimes she loses her balance when she leans for something. I feel so bad when this happens.

On another note, this is DDs first day on her own with her new nanny and I believe it's going great but i'm counting the hours till I get back. I really like the nanny and trust her but couldn't help anxiety this morning leaving her ! So glad when this day is over

Rhubarb, Tigermoth, that's an interesting comment about whether one remembers being smacked or punished in other ways. As I think I noted earlier, my mother smacked me until I was quite old and to this day, I am still, deep down, frightened of her. I think I stopped smacking my oldest when he was about five-ish and he says he can't ever remember being smacked. I'm now of the opinion that there is very little, if any, value in smacking and that children's behaviour is rarely that bad. Annoying, irritating, attention seeking, maybe, but none of these is the end of the world and there are other ways of dealing with it.

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I remember the time my mother murdered my dolls by throwing each one of them out of the window into the garden. I was about 4 at the time, I think. I had them neatly ranged on the back of the sofa, but to my mother this looked like another mess to clear up. The shock that she could do something so destructive to my loved ones stays with me still.

I know my mother sometimes slapped my legs with the back of a hairbrush. I can remember her doing this when I was between 5 and 8. The smacks were not hard or long and it certainly did not have the same shock value as the doll incident - then or now. I can't remember why or when she did it. I have no idea if my mother smacked me when I was younger than 5. Is this because she didn't do it, or because it didn't shock or hurt me very much?

Suedonim, funnily enough, my older son seems to have few memories of me smacking him as a toddler and young child, too. He's referred to other mothers who smack their children ( his friends). He thinks it's a bad thing, but when I say, 'I've smacked you in the not so distant past, you know' he says 'no you havn't really mum, not like I mean - not as much, it's not the same'

Going on my experiences and my son's reaction ( so far at least), being smacked as a young child had not been that traumatic. While I think smacking is in most cases futile, IME a light smack it doesn't necessarily leave mental scars either.

Sorry Bloss, but I just find it very hard to accept the view that some people seem to have that babies are manipulative. They simply don't have that sort of cognitive skill. Yes, babies are inherently selfish but I cannot accept they are out to wind you up in the way that a 3y+ can.

I'm impressed that you only smack in a detached way, I'm presuming you must have a consistent list of behaviours you don't tolerate. Unfortunately most people will find certain behaviours impossible one day and ok the next and do smack in irritation, as I'm sure you yourself will have seen on a trip to town on a Saturday! I suppose that I feel that as anti-smacking legislation combined with parental education/information on alternative discipline have been so effective in Scandanavia we should be open to changing things. After all, until fairly recently it was perfectly acceptable for a husband to put a disobedient wife over his knee!!!

I know that we've discussed smacking before on Mumsnet before almost exhaustively and I've been avoiding this thread because I feel so strongly about not smacking children.
I just cannot see anything positive about smacking a child. How do you decide what is the right age to start smacking a baby/toddler? How do you decide what is the right age to stop? How can you justify using your strength to deliberately hurt/shock your child? How can you say to your child don't hit others when you have hit them yourself?
I am not wishy washy libertarian and I firmly believe in setting children clear boundaries and I will not tolerate unnacceptable behaviour in my own ds, but I would never, ever hit him to achieve those goals. There are so many positive ways to discipline children.
I am quite shocked by the number of my friends and people I see on a day to day basis who happily smack their children. The most ridiculous example being a mother friend of mine who slapped her dd around the back of the legs because she had hit my ds. I couldn't believe it!
Anyone who thinks smacking is a useful and effective form of discipline should check out the research done by the Barnardos and the NSPCC and we are not talking about abuse here, just parental smacking.
I think that education authorities, children's charities etc should be doing more to educate parents about other methods of discipline. I think that anti-smacking legislation is probably a waste of time.

Ok I have been following this thread with interset and I am a 'controlled smacker' There are certain things that I won't tolerate from my daughter, who is three, and words, witholding of privileges, rewards for good behaviour have all been tried. For us it is the mere threat of a smack that works, I do a countdown (5-4-3-2-1) with a promise that if she doesn't behave she will get a smack. I think I have had to carry out my threat twice. The smack I gave her was a tap on the leg, just enough to make a noise (but about the same as if we were mucking around). She still screams and crys as if I hit her hard, but I know I haven't hurt her.

I have come round to this way of disipline as it works well for me and my daughter where other methods have failed. It also helps me have a structure as before I actively decided on this form of disipline I did smack her once or twice, and it was in frustration or anger. Now I find I get less frustrated as I can warn her as such. Also the countdown gives me the few seconds to calm myself!

One question for everyone here, if you are honest enough to answer, who hasn't EVER smacked, grabbed or pushed their child?

I know loads of you don't agree with smacking, but is anyone honest enough to admidt they have actually done it.

Crunchie, my dd is only 7 months and I am always patting her bottom (in an overtly affectionate way !!) so haven't really had the dilemma yet. I do know that I have shouted at her though (twice in 7 months) and felt very guilty afterwards. I have been so mad I've had to walk away and calm down and then go back. I don't know how I feel about the smacking. I was smacked as a child, sparingly, and I don't have any resentments to my mother at all. In fact I can't even remember her smacking me !

Thank you to everyone who has been honest enough to say they are pro-smacking - I have been reading through this thread over the last few days wondering whether to put my hand up or not, so here goes. DS is now 2 and has had the occasional smack, which has been a last resort after stern words and removal from the situation haven't worked. An example being he would continually stand on the arm of the sofa to move the heavy mirror which is hanging over the fireplace, and no amount of telling him to get down or putting him in his cot for a couple of minutes would put him off, so a short, sharp tap on the hand got the message across (which I'm sure hurt me more than him!).

I think I'm a pretty calm person (90% of the time) and I wouldn't smack out of anger or frustration, it only seems to be when DS is a danger to himself or others, usually. I would never, for example, smack him because he is hitting other children (which is his current phase) or for not eating food or breaking something accidentally. And I also feel putting a child in isolation and withdrawing physical contact is worse as it prolongs the pain. DS gets kisses and cuddles by the bucketload and is one of the happiest little chaps I know (and that is not just my opinion).

My Mum was appalled recently to see her nephew (aged 3) misbehave and his mother didn't bat an eyelid, he got away with blue murder, and she said she never saw him smile once.

DH doesn't smack our son at all which at times makes me feel guilty, but I think DS responds better to DH's tone of voice much better than mine, but also I think a man is much more capable of hurting a child with what they would feel is a slight tap (when DH and I have had playfights it's always me who ends up with the bruises and DH would say 'I hardly touched you!), so I wouldn't be happy for DH to smack him anyway.

I also hope the (infrequent) smacking would get less and less and stop altogether as DS gets older and I can reason with him and so other punishments (withdrawal of privileges) would be more effective then anyway, as pointed out by Tigermoth.

So thank you Bloss and others for your very honest responses here.

Crunchie,
I'm one who hasn't.
Jodee: neither of my girls has had a "phase of hitting other children".