Don't know where to start with DD1 (11yrs)

[sparrowwatcher44]

Hi, this is my 1st time on here and my 1st post.I really hope someone can help me.
The relationship between myself and my almost 12 yr old 1st born is really breaking down and I am beside myself with worry.I cry almost every day because of how she talks to us(me in particular) and her behaviour.She has an 8 yr old brother who she has never got on with and there is a lot of jealousy.I am still with their dad. I have been a SAHM for most of her life.Because there is only one wage coming in we have to be very careful with money.I am due to do a retraining course very soon to get back into teaching.She doesn't have as much as her friends, we do not have an xbox360, kinnect, she doesn't have a T.V in her room and a lot of other things.
She has always been a headstrong, quite willful child, school has always been problematic.Every year she was in juniors I had problems, she was being bullied, or was bullying.She is very bright but lazy which causes me a lot of frustration.She was bullied because she was popular, because of her intelligence, because she was pretty ,because she wore glasses and there was a lot of jealousy because she could sing and got a lot of attention because of that.
Since starting at secondary it has all gone mental.I know it is a particularly anxious, stressful time, she has had to make a lot of new friends and find her place within the school.She did really well in her yr 6 SATs and I was hopeful of a new school, new start and she did start off really well.Now, I can't even get her to do her homework, she would rather get a 15min detention for not doing it.She went through a phase of getting a lot of detentions.She has taken against a few of her teachers which I knew she would, I know you can't like everyone.She has such a thing about authority and being told what to do.I know that she has a lot of qualities that will probably take her far, she will not back down from anyone, she sticks up for herself, another cause of the bullying but I'm worried she will get into trouble as she also sticks up for her friends and HAS to get involved in their buisness.
I realise I am rambling here, apologies, my specific concerns at the moment are several, she has stopped eating breakfast.What stance am I meant to take with this? I know she is at an age where body image is key but I am really unhappy about her leaving the house without eating.She used to eat cereal, not anymore, she used to eat toast, this is now "gay" (I can't even understand how she talks anymore)I offer her several things but am getting worried I sound desperate that she is using this as a kind of control thing.We have just got her a blackberry curve as all of her friends have one (and they do) and she wanted to have a BB pin and be able to "ping" her friends.We also thought we could use it for leverage possibly.This is also creating problems as we take it off of her at 9pm and she thinks we are punishing her as her friends(and I can't believe this but I have seen it myself) are allowed to stay up all hours during the week and even later at weekends.Are we in a minority here in expecting our not quite 12 yr old to go to bed before 10pm on a week night? Over xmas, she got into a habit of going to bed later and later which I did try to address but I know it takes time.My problem now is that when we ask her to get ready for bed(9.30) she defiantly says "I'm not going to bed now" so even if she was upstairs and in her jammies she would be wanting to BB message, that's why we took it off of her and go on FB (another huge problem) so no laptop in her room and my husband has even had to take away her stereo lead as she would still be up reading, and listening to music when we were going to bed! She is getting to sleep on average after 12 each night, I know this to be too late.She thinks I am nagging, she thinks I am stopping her from doing what she wants but we(her dad and I) don't think we are being unreasonable.What more can we do?, what can we do? I must admit I don't like her new set of friends, one was excluded from her last school for violence and didn't get to do her SATs.We have said, no phone calls after 9pm, that's fair isn't it? but her friends don't listen, so we unplug the house phone(lol) she hasn't worked that out yet.Her friends seem to be allowed to stay up til they drop and seem to be allowed on their laptops/phones/watching DVDs until into the early hours.I don't know what to do, every day we argue and she says such horrible things to me.Your thoughts would be gratefully received as I must admit I am too embarrassed to talk to my friends about her.

sparrowwatcher - do not be embarrassed to talk to your friends. If they are real friends then they care about you and will want to help.

I am tempted to say that she is going through a "phase" but this is of no help to you.

My dd is 11 and in her first year at secondary school.

No-one leaves this house without breakfast and dd is lights off at 9.30 on school days.

Something is making her rebel against every rule you set and everything you expect from her.

Have you had a really long, serious talk with her, woman to woman? Notice I say woman to woman, not Mum to child.

Does she absolutely understand the rules of the house and the expectations of behaviour within it?

It is not acceptable for her to call the shots and I'm not sure if she knows this.

I have just come across your post looking for advice myself.
I cannot help but wanted you to know you are not alone.
My almost 10 year old is being very challenging at the moment. The biggest issue I am facing is the continual back chat and complete unwillingness to do anything asked - such as getting dressed...
I am so ashamed that every day our household is turning into an inferno with me and my DH loosing our temper.

I just don't know what to do ....

She is obviously a very bright girl (and knows it). She is too big for her boots.

I think she needs some responsibilities.

If she has some involvement in the running of the household then she will feel more a part of it. If she wants to stay up late then she needs to be making her and her brother's packed lunch for the next day and she needs to be laying out tomorrow's breakfast. What are you doing at 10pm? - ironing (I know I bloody am!) - then she should be doing it too. That's how a household works.

Time to get tough.

Do have that talk - but have it while you're doing something really adult together like putting up a shelf or something. That way she is not the child - she is an equal. If that's what she wants then that's what she gets.

Thank you Ooopsadaisy for your prompt reply.TBH a lot of this behaviour has really left us reeling and we are totally unprepared for it.With the not eating breakfast thing I think she would dig her heels in and not eat, then where would I be? She said she felt faint in P.E on Monday, and nearly passed out which prompted a serious, adult like discussion from both her dad and me about the perils of not eating.She has always been picky about food and getting her to eat healthily is becoming such a headache.She is petite, in no way developed like some of her friends, weight wise she is a lot slimmer than a lot of her friends but even though she understands the importance of healthy eating, nearly everyday she says she no longer likes such and such food.My husband says, leave her, that she will eat when she is hungry but apart from the emotional blackmail I feel continually under, what about the expense and the wasted food? She doesn't eat pasta, rice, red meat, she just about eats chicken.She eats some veg but not healthy things like homemade soup and some fruit.I was getting away with giving her a banana for breakfast but this morning she announced she no longer likes them.Packed lunches are "gay" she would rather buy a chicken wrap from school at an extortionate price! She doesn't eat pizza so we can't make her a nice pizza from scratch, she doesn't eat all the staples like chilli and bolognaise.The only meal she will eat that we can all have is a roast and even then she won't touch the spuds.She will eat a brown bread sandwich at school but if I try to reproduce the same thing at home it's no good.I'm stressing too much about this aren't I? Or am I? I wasn't expecting food to become an issue so soon.

I can't talk to her as she won't listen to me, she pushes me away, shouts at me to get out of her bedroom.And like I read on another thread, it seems like nothing I do is good enough.The dynamics of our family is so skewed at the moment, it is so unbalanced.She will sit there, when she sits with us as she doesn't even LIKE being around us at the moment and it is like waiting for a volcano to erupt.I get up in the morning and I think " O'h no(but stronger language lol) what is today going to be like?" I was crying yesterday making my husbands sandwiches for work, he just said "stop crying over her" but it's easy for him to say that, I am so depressed about this and worried that I can't stop crying.
We used to talk, she used to tell me things, now I am just prying, snooping in her buisness.

soudns a nightmare for you.
my 11 year old dd is very hard work. back chats. wont go to bed.
i think you need to take a step back. dont stress. remember she is probably wanting to be nice but thinks she shouldnt be.
try and get back on an even keel with her and she will coem back to you.

Hi Ooopsadaisy, at 10pm I'm trying to grab some much needed together time with my husband(her dad) I am too exhausted by then to do anything other than watch telly and try and relax but that is difficult as I very often feel so keyed up.

Food - yes, the parent's biggest nighmare.

Everything is "gay" in this house including the cat, apparently.

School canteen - where is the money coming from? Don't give it to her.

She needs to start planning her own meals if she's not happy with what you are doing. That means she spends ages at the shops and ages cooking and washing up - just like you do.

"Get out of her bedroom?" - who pays the mortgage? Who cleans the bastard? It is NOT "her bedroom".

You need to speaking to the school. Our secondary has a student services department who refer to a pastoral care team. I haven't used ours but I know of a Mum who has and they are bloody wonderful. They assist with counselling and negotiating etc on all sorts of issues.

You also need to speak to the parents of her friends. It depends very much on your relationship with them (if any) how you do this. Does she visit them often or sleepover? How is her behaviour etc?

This may not be the right thing for you but a friend of mine wrote her daughter a letter, calmly, but very honestly explaining how her behaviour was affecting everyone. It was written in a very adult-adult way. It helped enormously to start to buold a few bridges.

Thank you slartybartfast, I think she gets into a spiral with her defiance and can't get out of it, I haven't seen my old daughter for weeks upon weeks now.I know she is changing and my old daughter is no more but little glimmers would be nice.
The even keel is something I have been trying to do, so thank you for that.

tbh i dont know the solution but taking a step back always sounds like a good idea. i always think more sleep is required in my dd's case. but it is also a battle of wills. and sometimes you just have nothign else but to turn off the electricity, unplug the phone, as you are doing.

Oopsadaisy I was thinking exactly the same thing as shooping for her is a mare.I agree, she needs to come with me.Would you take away chocolate as she can still eat that lol.?The dinner money thing is a good point, her school runs a cashless dinner thing where they have a card and you put money on it.If I give her a packed lunch and she doesn't eat that and she hasn't had breakfast then what happens?

I would not feel comfortable speaking to her friends parents as I wouldn't know what to say especially to the mum of the violent girl.I am trying to relate to them from what I know but their lifestyles seem so alien to our own.She did have a sleepover with one of her new friends but was horrified to hear what they got up too.DD naturally felt it was absolutely brilliant, staying up all night and watching horror DVDs and taking videos and posting on FB etc and the language is just horrible and I always have thrown at me "that's nothing(referring to how she speaks to me) x says @@*(insert swear word of choice) to her mum" O.k , so that makes it all acceptable does it? I was going to go down the , invite them over for tea and try and get to know them route but I really don't want to be encouraging them, + DD would think that was really uncool, as I would probably ask too many questions but isn't that what us mums do?

good idea, to have a sleep over with her friends. never mind that it isnt cool for you to chat. she is wrong. you could hover for example.
what about her old friends? can you encourage those relatinoships?

i spose they are all tryign to appear BIG now they are at BIG school. horror films for example.

No breakfast and no lunch - she will be knackered and eventually go to bed early cos she'll feel crap. I know that sounds really cruel but you are in a never ending circle aren't you? It needs to be broken. No chocolate - ever - until this is sorted out. Chocolate is a treat for adults and should also be for children.

Swearing between parents and children is never right - I agree. She is in a crowd whose family behaviours are not compatible with yours (or mine). She knows this and is revelling in it. When her overall attitudes changes she will become bored of this association and find friends who are more like her true self. I had friends my Mum disapproved of when I was about 14, but because my Mum did not react when I told her what they did, I got bored with them. It took time, I was not damaged but I was better equiped for life for the experience.

I know other advice on here has been about relaxing and getting back to an even keel but I think it should be on your terms - not hers.

You need to appear calm and relaxed but inside have a very solid plan of action to turn this around. She is too clever by half!

Thinking about it, I have been thinking about contacting the school and asking to go in and speak to her form teacher initially and see what might be available.When I said this to DD she was like you can't do that, but o'h yes I can, I said I will MAKE them see me but they would probably be open to meeting me anyway.

When she started in yr 3 of the juniors(she went to a seperate infant school) it was only a couple of months after her nan died and it was her 1st experience of death.I asked the school if they offered counselling and one of the Senior Management team had done a course on bereavement counselling and I think was more than happy to meet with DD and me, seperately.

When my DS, now 8 was in pre-school, there were concerns raised about him possibly having ADHD so we went through a full paediatric screening which included family therapy.My experience of that was absolutely rubbish, my son would not sit still as he was so stressed(he was experiencing severe seperation anxiety, had speech delay and was immature but how a 3 yr old can be labelled immature??? ) He is no absolutely fine, in yr 4 and doing really well, though still doesn't like change, like changing teachers but he is getting better.Anyway, the therapist saw DD, she was about 7 or 8 at the time and actually said that she was very willfull and that she didn't know what to suggest, but good luck with her nonetheless.We used to walk out of the sessions and DD used to do a critique on the session which I did think was funny (and truthful lol) but I didn't show that.

good idea to contact the school. she neednt be involved. and they may also have advice groups or something. they can be very problematic at senior school age.
good luck

I would definitely contact the school.
I have every sympathy with you and hope the school can help

Don't go to her tutor or teachers - approach the student services people (or whatever at your school) - it is separate from teaching staff. Don't tell her. There's no need - you are doing this bit for you - not her.

Do not allow her to dictate all the time. Take back the power that is rightfully yours.

I really feel for you - be strong.

Keep posting if it helps.

Ooopsadaisy, what you are saying really does make sense to me.I am fortunate that her dad is in full agreement with me and we will present a united front, in fact some times he can take over as she really has been wearing me out/down.I think part of it was I didn't tell my husband everything as I felt I should be dealing with it better but he has actually seen how it has affected me like my melt down xmas day as she wasn't happy with the presents she got and said she got jack cr*p, which really upset me as I spent months looking for things and researching stuff and trying to get the best price etc and I was excited about her seeing what she had but it wasn't an xbox 360 and a kinnect or a blackberry etc.

A never ending circle is exactly what I feel like I am in, you are right.I am going to talk to my husband again and we are going to form more house rules that she needs to adhere to.I know I am too uptight about her education but I WAS the child who ended up in those lower level classes with the delinquents that nobody bothered about, the unteachables of my era , because I didn't go to school and when I finally did it was too late in a lot of ways to catch up as I had missed so much.Perhaps that is why I became a teacher e'h and having a child who rebels so much against the system as well, not good.
She wants to dumb herself down and actually be in the lower sets so she can be with her friends.

How do I go about finding what is available? I know they have a school nurse type person, I don't need her do I?
So, try and get this sorted 1st, then go in about homework related stuff after?

Sparrow, I know all of this is huge for you, but you have to start small. No homework is going to get done until a few other matters are sorted. She is very bright and will have no trouble catching up later - she is only in year 7. Priorities have to be eating/sleeping and behaviour first.

Ring the school. Block your number if you want and ring them and ask, anonymously, what the school offers in terms of support for students experiencing difficulties - don't be forced into saying too much that you don't want to, but stress that it is not school-work related to start with.

As I said, our school has pastoral care as part of the staff and I think most if not all schools have to offer something of this nature. Ours was absolutely brilliant for a friend of mine. The support is ongoing and makes me cry with relief because I care very much about the girl involved, so you can imagine the help it is to her mother.

I have just looked on the schools website and under the parents section, they say they have a PSA(parent support advisor) they say they offer confidential support and help but to get in touch with them you have to go through your child's head of year and they put in a referral(not sure how much you are expected to tell them) so you are flagging up a concern, a possible problem, but I suppose I was thinking of going in to speak to the form tutor.

Sparrow your daughter is behaving badly and you are facilitating this. You are allowing her to rule the roost, to dictate how the household runs. No 11 year old should have that power. She is a child and needs to behave like one which includes doing as she is told when she is told.

Your house, your rules.

I have 3 DCs aged 15,12 & 11 and I can tell you that none of them have a blackberry, it really isnt necessary. The only person with a TV in her room is the 15 year old and she knows the rules so doesnt disturb anyone else by watching it late into the night.

Your daughter needs to relearn courtesy and consideration. This means in my house that these are observed all the time. DCs are regularly reminded to be polite to each other. This means pleases and thank yous. DH and I do the same. Swearing, insulting behaviour or back chat of any sort is not tolerated.

I dont think that allowing your daughter to decide choose her own meals is a good idea. However you may need to sit down with her and work out the weekly menus to ensure that she gets some say in what is served up. You may find that her tastes have changed and arent the same as yours however you obviously have some shared ground.

So far as bedtimes etc, remove sources of entertainment from her room except a light and books. I see no problem in allowing her to read herself to sleep but she shouldnt be allowed to disturb everyone else. After a while you may decide to return some of these (but not the blackberry).

If anyone phones after a reasonable time at night dont allow her to speak to them and at the same time give the caller a bit of an earfull for disturbing everyone (obv dont do this at 7pm!). It sounds like she has got in with an unpleasant crowd so making sure that contact is limited wont do any harm.

I do feel for you but I do feel you need to get a hold on the situation before it is totally out of control.

I know, but the not doing homework is very much part of the behaviour problem it's intrinsic.But, thank you, I do appreciate what you are saying.

Thank you Gnomedeplume this is what I need to hear I feel as I have got myself into such a parenting rut(I'm crying now) I knew it wasn't right or acceptable and do feel it would get more out of control.I am going back to Uni to do a return to teaching course part time in just under 2 weeks and should be excited, nervous, preparing for it, but I can't, DD is taking precedence, she is all consuming which I know not to be right or natural.I need to go back to work not just for the money but for my own self worth.The other week DD actually sneered at me "what do you actually do? You don't go to work, you don't go to college, you don't do anything". I know, incredible, I would never have dreamt of speaking to my mum like that.

I know a blackberry isn't necessary, I have an old brick phone that is about 6 yrs old.Peer pressure is terrible, she already gets teased because she doesn't have(including a telly in her room) all of the things her friends have.There is not anything apart from laptop time that we can take away from her as punishment.We have already removed the lead from her stereo as she was listening to music, albeit down low , in her bedroom.

She can't be trusted at the moment as when we have taken her laptop away, one night we took it into our room with us, I awoke to a strange sensation of something being in the room with us and she was crawling around our bed trying to get to the laptop which was on the floor on DH side of bed!.

Hi Sparrow - I am so sorry. This all must be heartwrenching for you.

Regarding some of the peer pressure about 'stuff', I really think that this is just a particular crowd. Certainly the people my DCs count as friends (and even the people they dont!) dont have all of these things.

I know that some people on here would say respond to the words and actions rather than 'attitude'. I think that there is some mileage in that. The response to the question 'what do you do?' is a straight forward answer 'cook, clean, keep everything working for this family'. Perhaps follow this up with the question 'what do you do for the family?'.

At the moment your daughter is trying to find her place in the school society. Are there any other things out of school your daughter could try? In this I'm thinking of anything from the various cadets to music or drama. You could try bribery in this to get her to try things. One of the big advantages of these types of group is that they provide structure but also a different set of friends which takes the weight off the school friends (IYSWIM). My DS (12) is currently sticking with one club so that when he is old enough he can switch to air cadets which is what he really wants to do. This was an agreement we made.

Is it possible to sit down with your daughter (and in fact the whole household) and starting with a clean slate, draw up a set of house rules (this means they apply to everyone)? These can help her to see that the whole family has to pull together to make a household work - not just chores but how you treat each other. Use examples - 'is it okay to say XXX to anyone?'.

Do you drive or have a car? I find that the car is a great place to talk with my DCs - the lack of eye contact (or any place to run) are a boon.

Dont abandon hope, your daughter may seem a long way off but I'm sure you can get closer to her again.

Gnomedeplume, it's o.k I need to hear this stuff, the drawing up of and talking about existing house rules as a family is what I was thinking of doing.When I am stressed I think I tend to let things slide with both of them, like no DSi for DS after 7.30pm and keeping to set bedtimes.I just feel for my son who I feel gets overlooked although I do give him time but never feel it is enough.He's a sensitive chappie and it's not good for him to hear us arguing all the time or to see his mum crying in the kitchen, there are only soooo many onions that can be making you cry after all lol.