Don't know where to start with DD1 (11yrs)

[sparrowwatcher44]

Hi, this is my 1st time on here and my 1st post.I really hope someone can help me.
The relationship between myself and my almost 12 yr old 1st born is really breaking down and I am beside myself with worry.I cry almost every day because of how she talks to us(me in particular) and her behaviour.She has an 8 yr old brother who she has never got on with and there is a lot of jealousy.I am still with their dad. I have been a SAHM for most of her life.Because there is only one wage coming in we have to be very careful with money.I am due to do a retraining course very soon to get back into teaching.She doesn't have as much as her friends, we do not have an xbox360, kinnect, she doesn't have a T.V in her room and a lot of other things.
She has always been a headstrong, quite willful child, school has always been problematic.Every year she was in juniors I had problems, she was being bullied, or was bullying.She is very bright but lazy which causes me a lot of frustration.She was bullied because she was popular, because of her intelligence, because she was pretty ,because she wore glasses and there was a lot of jealousy because she could sing and got a lot of attention because of that.
Since starting at secondary it has all gone mental.I know it is a particularly anxious, stressful time, she has had to make a lot of new friends and find her place within the school.She did really well in her yr 6 SATs and I was hopeful of a new school, new start and she did start off really well.Now, I can't even get her to do her homework, she would rather get a 15min detention for not doing it.She went through a phase of getting a lot of detentions.She has taken against a few of her teachers which I knew she would, I know you can't like everyone.She has such a thing about authority and being told what to do.I know that she has a lot of qualities that will probably take her far, she will not back down from anyone, she sticks up for herself, another cause of the bullying but I'm worried she will get into trouble as she also sticks up for her friends and HAS to get involved in their buisness.
I realise I am rambling here, apologies, my specific concerns at the moment are several, she has stopped eating breakfast.What stance am I meant to take with this? I know she is at an age where body image is key but I am really unhappy about her leaving the house without eating.She used to eat cereal, not anymore, she used to eat toast, this is now "gay" (I can't even understand how she talks anymore)I offer her several things but am getting worried I sound desperate that she is using this as a kind of control thing.We have just got her a blackberry curve as all of her friends have one (and they do) and she wanted to have a BB pin and be able to "ping" her friends.We also thought we could use it for leverage possibly.This is also creating problems as we take it off of her at 9pm and she thinks we are punishing her as her friends(and I can't believe this but I have seen it myself) are allowed to stay up all hours during the week and even later at weekends.Are we in a minority here in expecting our not quite 12 yr old to go to bed before 10pm on a week night? Over xmas, she got into a habit of going to bed later and later which I did try to address but I know it takes time.My problem now is that when we ask her to get ready for bed(9.30) she defiantly says "I'm not going to bed now" so even if she was upstairs and in her jammies she would be wanting to BB message, that's why we took it off of her and go on FB (another huge problem) so no laptop in her room and my husband has even had to take away her stereo lead as she would still be up reading, and listening to music when we were going to bed! She is getting to sleep on average after 12 each night, I know this to be too late.She thinks I am nagging, she thinks I am stopping her from doing what she wants but we(her dad and I) don't think we are being unreasonable.What more can we do?, what can we do? I must admit I don't like her new set of friends, one was excluded from her last school for violence and didn't get to do her SATs.We have said, no phone calls after 9pm, that's fair isn't it? but her friends don't listen, so we unplug the house phone(lol) she hasn't worked that out yet.Her friends seem to be allowed to stay up til they drop and seem to be allowed on their laptops/phones/watching DVDs until into the early hours.I don't know what to do, every day we argue and she says such horrible things to me.Your thoughts would be gratefully received as I must admit I am too embarrassed to talk to my friends about her.

Many people will tell you that teenagers (and proto teenagers) are similar to toddlers. Now is the time when you need to be establishing firm boundaries. As with toddlers, consistency is important: bedtimes, behaviour, whatever.

There are gizmos which put time control on the internet. Could that be of use to you?

'If I give her a packed lunch and she doesn't eat that and she hasn't had breakfast then what happens?'

She experiences the consequences of her foolish choices is what happens.

I really agree with Oopsadaisy here. Your DD needs chores and accountability. You could start with getting her to make one meal for the family per week, including dessert and all the cleaning up afterwards. She should be participating in preparing the family evening meal and should have the job of setting the table. I like Gnomedeplume's suggestions too. There have to be strictly enforced consequences for her choices.

I would also buy and read 'Queen Bees and Wannabees' by Rosalind Wiseman about the horrible cliques and groups and the pressures she may be under in school, and maybe use this as the basis of chats with her about her school performance and why she is dumbing herself down.

I too have a DD whon is 11 and am a firm believer in chosing your battles.

However, all the issues you have raised I think would be important enough for me to tackle.

First can I say, do not berate yourself for nit having lots of cash. We are pretty wealthy, and I tell you this because you need to know that depite our cash my DC do not have an xbox, kinnect, TVs in their rooms or Blackberries.

Seriously, kids should not be demanding this stuff. What next? An Ipad? A car?

As for breakfast, DD has only thirty mins to get ready and leave for school. She often doesn't feel like eating. So we did a deal. She would manaage a smoothie. We make them the night before with yog, milk, fruit and honey. There are enough calories to last til break when she can have a one of the snack's her school provides.

Bedtime. DD goes between 8.30 -9pm on a school night. We constantly discuss how this gives her enough sleep to live happily and healthily. I also mention looks...water and sleep are a pretty girl's friend.

As for FB. They don't accept children under thirteen. So how did she get on there?

I think you really need to get a grip of this now. She is still a child and you are the boss. You need to be the driving force of your family before she does something really stupid.

I have a DS the same age. He has a mobile phone because he has a long bus journey to school. It is not a cool one, it is a £50 Samsung. No tv in his room, no xbox, no facebook. There is a wii in the sitting room which is shared. As lit chick says, this is not because we can't afford them ( we send him to independent school, for example) but because we agree with you that kids don't need them. He has his light out at 9 on a school night. You are not being unreasonable, yr7 can be a big adjustment and maybe that's part of the issue but you need to stick to your guns.

Have you my DD1 living in your house?

She's 12 and it's all so familiar.

I am at the end of my rope. And I am a single parent, which I think makes it harder as my XH won't back me.

I have just gone out like a screechy fishwife woman and told the kids outside my front window to go home and scream and yell outside their parents' windows as I have kids to put to bed - and they are younger than DD1 . I've had weeks and weeks of this and I am fed up to the back teeth.

With regard to food, I now get The Face no matter what I suggest for dinner.

She gets her lunch in school, and the choices are pretty good but dear God it is annoying to have to put good food in the bin because she has hoked through it and hashed it to bits.

And her room is like a bomb site.

And she is DC3, she had two older brothers and they were heaps easier.

No answers, just sympathising really, but I decided on Monday that 8pm was in the house time, and 8.45 was up the stairs time - no arguments.

Oh and for the record no phone in bedroom/laptop/TV in this house either.

You sound frightened of her and hurt by her (understandably). If I had said my Xmas presents were "jack crap" I would have got the bollocking from hell from my mother who would probably have frogmarched me out of the front door and told me only to come back when I had learnt some manners! (that cut me down to size!) I know it's easier said than done but I think you need to stop feeling hurt and worried about her and assert authority. Shes calling all the shots and getting away with being obnoxious. Shes pushing because she wants you to man up. You love her of course but that doesn't mean she can treat you badly with impunity.

Eg you worry if you don't give her dinner money that she won't eat. Just tell her - pack lunch or nothing, it's up to her. Don't pussyfoot around her. If she says she won't eat then tell her thats her choice - but you aren't budging.

Comparisons with other friends parents- I used to do this and my mother said I dont care what x's mum says and x, thank god, is not my responsibility. I am your mother and sure as you like i am going to do a decent job and not let you stay out all night (or whatever). Sneakingly I was proud of her and thought her a better mum than x's because she could be bothered with the aggro to stick to her guns!

I think you should make an effort to stop crying and put on your tough face too.

Agreed.

If we want our children to repect us then we have to lead from the front and respect ourselves.

Hi sparrowwatcher - just reading all this back and wondering how you are today?

I read that your ds is suffering with all this - in front of dd give your ds a big old hug today and tell him how much he is loved. Tell dd the same but don't hug - just ask if she'd like one. If she says "er, no - don't be gay" which I'm guessing she will, just shrug and say "that's ok, but I love you just the same." Don't expect her to say it back.

You are in control and you have the comfort of knowing you have done a good thing without getting hurt.

Baby steps .....

How's everything else going?

Thank you everyone for your input on this.

Litchick, I agree with you , yes, she shouldn't be demanding these things.We might be able to afford some things at a push but we don't want to get them so we won't however much she whines.

She wouldn't drink a smoothie unfortunately but agree that's a good idea.

I know I need to get a handle on things that is why I joined mumsnet, I had no-one else to talk to about this apart from my husband.

Acanthus, I know we are not being unreasonable and that I will need to stick to my guns which I will as it is for her own good.Interestingly enough the friend we are the most concerned about (influence wise) heard the way DD was talking to me as they were talking on the phone and told DD to cut me some slack as I'm o.k shock!

imustbemadasaboxoffrogs, I sympathise it is very wearing.

Bumpsadaisie, I am not frightened of her just worn out by her as she has always been a difficult child.She says things when she is upset, she was happy initially when she opened her presents it was only after the upteenth friend had texted her telling her they had a blackberry that she had that outburst but I know, still unacceptable.I am more reticent to give her things than my husband, he understands more the need to fit in and be the same as others e.g they all have their hair the same way.She does know how to behave, deep down she is a good kid, we have brought her up the best we can.I pull her up over her rudeness, her language, the way she talks about her friends/others.

When her current money runs out we will need to sort out her packed lunches.We can't afford £10 a week on dinner money and she needs to start learning about the value of money.That is why I take her food shopping with me so that she can see what things cost, plus she should be helping me.None of her current friends are expected to do anything and consequently they don't.

I say the I don't care about such and such too :)I care about you.

I don't cry in front of her but she can probably tell from my voice I am upset.

And I agree about the respect for yourself thing too, before I had children I was really confident, I knew what I was about and I was good at my job etc. . .

Thank you Ooopsadaisy, we are o.k thanks.

You are right it is indeed baby steps.

we have reiterated the taking the blackberry off of her for 9.30 as that is when she goes to bed.There is no laptop in the room.She can listen to the radio, read until 10pm , then lights out.She is protesting, we know she will but she will do it.I have told her that her friends can't phone after 9pm, if they do I will answer the phone.

We were able to have a little chat yesterday about her eating.It was good because her brother was at an afterschool club so it was just me and her.I have gleened it's a I just don't fancy it thing, eating cereal takes too long and I am tired.So, hopefully we get her sleeping more sorted her appetite will follow.She had grapes this morning but she will also have scrambled egg on toast which she does like or beans on toast or frosted shreddies, the only cereal she will eat.I will need to have a longer chat with her to see just what is happening at lunchtime and why packed lunches are so gay.I think it may be a time thing as they don't get very long and she eats slowly.I was talking to my friend who was a PSA at my son's school for a little bit and she was explaining a little bit more about the role.I think this may be an option but I think I will try and hold off just a bit, monitor the situation and see.Last night she did do her science homework and she did do it well after lots of procrastinating and saying she didn't know what to do but once she had relaxed and thought about it (as after all she was there)
she made a good job of it from what I could tell :>)I said even if she wasn't sure it was right the fact she had done something would count for something and not get her a detention.I think in some lessons things are very rushed and she doesn't always listen.
DS is very affectionate, he is always spontaneously hugging us, I am watching him for signs of stress and we have talked about his sister , her attitude etc and to not take what she says to heart.I pull them both up, they can't even say shut up in our house I dislike it so much and they know.DD has never been a cuddler but will receive them.She has a cuddle on getting up and on going to bed and I know she wants it/needs it as she will really hug into me.I know she feels bad about her outbursts but she is a very proud girl, always has been.We are/were very close, that is why I have been getting so upset.

I suspect that packed lunches are "gay" because the cool kids (ie the ones who swear at their parents and stay up all night) have school meals. It is the same at our school but I will not be influenced by this and my dcs are ok with packed lunches.

Grapes for breakfast are better than nothing - go with it for a while but suggest eggs/beans etc occassionally.

Glad that hugging happens. Build on the hugs. Make them talking time as well as hugging times. Tell her some of what's going on in your life like getting the washing done or who you saw at the shops - just little things to let her in. Use these times to find a common ground to open up the subjects that really need addressing.

Well done for sounding so positive today.

Yeah, we had a good night last night, I think secretly she is crying out for us to intervene, perhaps she doesn't even WANT to be friends with some of these girls which is something I just thought last night.I will let things settle down and explore these thoughts a bit further.We went through a short stage of her not communicating with me which was hellish, she did that stroppy, I'm not talking to anyone thing, holing herself up in her room, listening to music and reading.Over xmas she read all of the 5 books I got for her!
And as much as she does the you don't want me, I'm not part of this family, I don't belong thing, we still insist that she spends time in the front room with us as we only have the 1 telly and the wii is there as well.We do talk about her friends, I know what boys like her and what boys she likes but keeping up with her musical tastes is harder lol :>) I think it is very easy to get into a pattern of continually flying off of the handle and being irritated by them, I think sometimes I wasn't even hearing what she was saying I just reacted.That is why my husband is so good with her as he comes in and just sees her in the moment and she responds so positively to that.

I second telling DCs about our days, what we've been doing, our plans etc.

It makes them see us a human beings.

I agree, we used to gossip and I liked being able to do that with her you know who you had seen, what they had said etc. . .

I am interested in what you say about the music.

Listen to the radio today or learn a bit about what's in the charts and then when she's home tell her that you've heard a song but you can't remember who it's by or what it's called. Can she help you please? Get talking. Have a laugh about it. Tell her about the music you liked at her age.

I was a teenager in the 80s so my dd thinks it's hilarious to do this. Sit on the computer and show her how popstars dressed in the 80s and 90s. Have a laugh about it. My dd knows I wanted to be Debbie Harry and fancied Paul Young. (Shame).

I just lost a great long post as mumsnet went down and I don't know where it went :>(

I liked Paul Young too lol :>)

I've just seen this and couldn't not post. My mother is/was a teacher. She is now a very well respected County Head who is called upon to trouble shoot at the very toughest schools in our county. But... she STILL tells people who come to see her about their own difficult children that the year I was 12 was the worst year of her life! (I am now 31!) I didn't behave quite as your DD does - I didn't demand stuff - but I certainly spoke to her appallingly and also did the "you don't want me" thing. Looking back, I think it was partly hormone related, but also because I wasn't very happy and my Mum was the closest person to me so I took it out on her. Starting secondary school was very difficult for me and I found sorting out my place in the cliques etc very tricky. It does sound to me like this is some of what could be going on for your DD. Also, my Mum and I were/are VERY similar and we wound each other up partly because of that.

I am a teacher too and never have behaviour management issues at school. I can silence a class with one look and don't have difficulty with the most challenging of children in our school. However.... dealing with my own DD (who is only 2.9) is a completely different kettle of fish. She is a totally normal 2 year old, but my GOD she presses my buttons! And often I don't really know how to get through her, where as I know at school I would have no such crisis of confidence! Is this the same for you do you think? It's difficult when emotions are involved, isn't it?!

I am rambling now... But basically wanted to say ride it out with your DD. Explore if/why she is not happy. Set boundaries but also try to keep lines of communication open. I second the idea of writing to her. She can then read and re read it at her own leisure and will hopefully take in what you say a bit more. Maybe you could set up a book where she can write down her thoughts for you if she can't bring herself to talk about what she is feeling?

It interests me that you say she has never got on with her brother. I never got on with mine either. I always felt that both my parents treated him differently and my Mum ALWAYS intervened in disputes between us. I think now, if she had just acknowledged that I found him difficult (she actually admits this now, and interestingly doesn't have a very good relationship with him as an adult) and supported me a bit more in building my relationship with him, as well as leaving us to solve our own disputes sometimes I would have felt a lot better about it. You say you have spoken to your DS about his sister. Have you done the same the other way round?

There is light at the end of the tunnel I feel. If it helps, I was horrible as a 12 year old but then the rest of my teenage years were event free! Whereas my sister was delightful until about 14 and then HORRIBLE until she was 20! It will get better, I am sure of it.

Bloody hell! That was a mammoth post! Don't think I've ever written quite that much!

Thank you sarararararah(what a user name :>) ) had me going boss eyed LOL:>)

A lot of your post rang true on more then one level.I too take no truck from a class, I'm a Supply teacher or was , and am hoping to be again.With my own children a completely different kettle of fish though and yes she pushes my buttons too much and yes we are very a like and the bit about the behaviour for me and not being able to talk to my friends stems from being a nursery nurse for 12 yrs before becoming a teacher and the expectation I feel(from my friends) that I SHOULD know what I am doing(I know this is probably all in the head)I don't think I have really talked to her enough about why she feels the way she does about him and I will admit that perhaps I intervene/interfere too much but that is to possibly ward off things getting worse but perhaps they wouldn't.
I don't think she is happy, I think she feels frustrated and jealous that her friends have so much stuff, she did have one friend who's mum had remarried and both her and her stepdad were working, plus her biological dad and his new partner, plus both sets of grandparents were alive and able to treat her.She had 24 prs of shoes/trainers aged 11!!! My daughter likes nice things especially shoes and bags :>(
My kids do not have any grandparents which is a shame or aunties and uncles who can treat them.

I think part of the problem is also that at her junior school she was extremely popular and was the leader of her particular close group of friends.Here at her new school she has no place, she recently had a major falling out with her old best friend(a lovely girl and family, I still miss her) over a boy which won't be resolved. I don't like this new set but I can't say too much but she does know some of my concerns .I always try and see all sides and be fair this has always infuriated DD in the past as she has seen it as not being on her side.
Perhaps that's too much of the teacher in me.

Ha ha! I didn't really think my name through did I? It's a bugger to log on with. Even I can't remember how many rararas there are! Sarah is fine....!

So, it sounds like you have a lot of issues to talk to her about. I feel for you as I know I must have been a nightmare for my mother to reach. I think my DD will be similar too as she is VERY like me! However, I feel for your DD too, as I have been her! I am a firm believer in behaviour being as a result of how you feel. She maybe doesn't have the emotional vocabulary/maturity to express the actual problem as yet? Is there anyone else who could talk to her for you? Thinking back, I used to talk to my maternal grandmother a lot and would go and stay there when the pressure cooker got too much for all of us. You say she doesn't have grandparents but is there anyone else who could help? A family friend perhaps?

I cross posted with Toughasold boots. I agree with what she says about other parents being smug. The 'well I just wouldn't put up with that' or 'we are really firm on boundaries here' is the sort of thing I would have thought before having DC. However, I have discovered that some children need different strategies! Although I don't have older children my toddler DD can be quite volatile and I find entering into confrontation with her is completely pointless and just escalates things and makes it all 100x worse. For her it works much better to find another angle and be more creative with resolving the situation. Bloody hard work though!

I think people say "I wouldn't put up with that" because this sort of stuff only gets this bad if things have gradually slid away from the parent for a long while. I know it isn't helpful! But I think people mean to say, using this shorthand, that because they have held the line on behaviour with their kids, they don't get the more extreme behaviour that people post about on here. It's the permanent holding of the line between acceptable and unacceptable, together with thinking over which issues to fight on and which to let go, that is the hard part of parenting this age group I think. My kids are well behaved and I have no real problems with them. But that doesqn't mean it is always easy, more that I head the problems off at the pass, IYSWIM. It's like a war, parenting. You can afford to lose a few battles but no more. Constant vigilance, people!

I know how you feel, my dd1 who is also 11 was behaving exactly the same, it was really getting me down tbh, I was getting a lot of headaches and felt a weight was on my shoulders, it was really hard work and tiring.

Christmas eve she came down with the cold/ flu illness everyone has had. Christmas day she sat opening presents with a couldn't care less expression which was heartbreaking tbh, the only ethusiasm she showed was when we opened our presents which was nice but I was still heartbroken she didn't seem happy about things we'd carefully chosen and struggled to pay for. DD1 said it was because she didn't feel well and that's why she lacked ethusiasm. She then spent about a week lying around watching tv, pretending to sleep and ignoring us, I left her to it because I thought even though she was laying the illness on thick maybe she needed the rest after all she had had a long term and started a new school but I was worried because she said she had lost her appetite and was barely eating, in the end I settled for the fact she would drink milk, I was on the verge of taking her to the doctors about her weight as she is very tiny for her age but the more fuss I create the more she does it so I just made sure I brought things I know she usually can't resist and it seemed to improve her eating a little bit but not that much.

Dd1 then went to her grandparents with her sister and cousins and they went out for macdonalds, dd1 ate it all and had pudding (which she hadn't done for over a week) partly because she was feeling better by then but also because her grandparents wouldn't have put up with her messing about and also because the other 3 children are really good eaters I think so she came home a lot happier and eating a lot better.

Something seemed to click she started behaving a bit better, whether it was the rest she'd had or the fact she had seen how calm our home was when she had been lying around and not causing tension I don't really know but she has been so much better behaved, like a different child, it's been amazing! All of a sudden she's done things like thanked me for making her lunch to take to school, gave me cuddles and kisses a lot more, txt me from school saying hi mum miss you love you - so I said to her carry on like this and I will allow you privilidges like watching tv in your room for a bit in the evenings, take her swimming when her sister is in bed, watch a film with her, take her tobogganing she was so so happy with these ideas and was so grateful, I was suprised by her gratitude because its not like I haven't tried to reward her for good behaviour before, it's just normally she can't keep it up long enough to get the rewards!

I told everyone who would listen how proud I was of dd1, all the good things she had been doing, basically everything I ever ried to teach her had sunk in and she was behaving so brilliantly, she was a pleasure to spend time with, I explained how much weight have been lifted and how much happier I felt and how the atmosphere in the house was so much nicer all because she had changed her attitude towards us, I wasn't constantly telling her to mind how she spoke to me or her sister, I wasn't reminding her about how to behave, nagging to do as she's told etc for nearly 2 weeks she has been wonderful and lovely and she's been so much happier too.

Then yesterday morning she lost something, we all helped her look and in the end I gave her one of mine and promised to replace hers at the weekend she mouthed off at all of us then sulked and ignored us she went off to school and we were all upset and cross we feared she had been faking her new improved behaviour and had known all the time how we expected her to behave but just couldn't be bothered because she didn't care or respect us enough. I tried to remain positive, it was just a blip, we all have off days, she was upset she'd lost something and had taken it out of those closest etc when she came home from school she apologised and then was brilliantly behaved for the rest of the day.
My hope was restored but shaken.

This morning she was behind me drying her hair i said jokingly oh ur blowing my hair too and she snapped at me and though it was just one line, her tone and the way she looked at me really upset me and it was as if I had dreamt the past 2 weeks. I felt stupid and naieve to have believed she could have changed that much so suddenly. But then she apologised and cuddled me and has since text me and seems to be trying to make amends SO I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt BUT I am going to expect the new improved behaviour not only because I can't take any more of living with the old behaviour but also because she has now proved to us that she can be well behaved and lovely and I am not going to let her get lost and go back to making us all miserable.

Good Luck and I hope for some good luck too. It's a hard thankless job at times isn't it but there isn't really any options but to carry on and keep fighting is there?