Frustrated father - advice please

[AnnaLies]

My wife is still breastfeeding and still has our baby in our bed every night. I've been pleading for months for her to be in her own cot, preferably in her own room for months now but to no avail. I think my wife's just very lazy. I can't even get a routine going and it's often past 10pm when they go to bed and often 10am when they get up. It's driving me mad!! Our baby is 17 months old!

So...... how on earth can we now get her in her own room? How can we get her to bed at a set hour each evening? How can we get her off her mums breast? I try often but she doesn't seem to be bothered. Fact is it's meaning we never get any time together..... we can't have a night out....... we can't even have a cuddle in bed. This really has to stop.

I've recently been trying to give her warmed cows milk with a little sugar but she's utterly uninterested. As she is also with hot chocolate or any other way i try and serve it. Can anyone give any suggestions please? I've tried giving in a beaker, a cup with a straw and even an adult mug. She just doesn't want to know.

So really asap i want her in her own cot, own room, off the breast, and in bed early evening. tips plz! :)

'I've recently been trying to give her warmed cows milk with a little sugar but she's utterly uninterested. As she is also with hot chocolate or any other way i try and serve it. Can anyone give any suggestions please? I've tried giving in a beaker, a cup with a straw and even an adult mug. She just doesn't want to know.'

This is from the OP. Look at the "I" statements. There is no mention of "we". He threw that in later when he realised it didn't look good to be saying "I" so much. Apparently the wife here has not been giving the milk (or the hot chocolate )

He is surprised by a lot of very basic information wrt babies and toddlers and their needs. I very much doubt if he has ever cracked open a book about baby and toddler care and feeding, or listened to a word of what anyone else, his wife for instance, has said on the subject.

One of the main benefits of co-sleeping even with a 17 month old is that bfing in the night may be possible without too much disturbance of the woman doing the feeding (a dreamfeed for both parties perhaps). Breastfeeding, while not strictly nutritional, may be used to soothe the toddler back to sleep while minimising disturbance to the whole family and eliminating the need to pace the floor with a crying child, listen to hours of howling while trying to get her to calm herself. If the wife here is keeping on co-sleeping either all night or for a part of the night, despite his pleas to her to stop, she is doing it because she wants to. And wanting as much of a night's sleep as you can possibly get, by any means possible, is not being "lazy", as AnnaLies has called her.

AnnaLies has told us that the toddler's sleep is often disturbed between 4 and 6 (although he has contradicted himself here, initially giving the impression that the child sleeps all night in the bed and then saying there's a cot in the room and the bed-sleeping happens when her sleep is disturbed in the wee small hours of the morning) and I suspect bfing takes place then for comforting purposes. He now thinks that since milk is not needed in the night but just in the day and since bfing allegedly has no nutritional benefit for a toddler, there is no real reason for the co-sleeping or the bfing in the night, and I suspect he will go back to his wife and present her with his newfound knowledge in order to pressure her about both bfing and co-sleeping. Hence my comment about the milk advice. It's a double whammy to use against the wife.

I think he is fishing here for information and suggestions to use against his wife's inclinations to keep on co-sleeping and to keep on breastfeeding. He has pleaded with her for months and it hasn't worked. Now he wants 'normal' women to back him up and tell him he's a saint and she's a loon; he has been told that milk is only needed during the day, breastmilk has no nutritional value -- all ammunition to use against his wife I fear.

Hi, I haven't read the whole thread, just your OP.
PLEASE do NOT give your 17 month old baby milk with sugar or chocolate milk.
He will get used to the taste and it does not get give any nutrition, plus bad for his teeth, and longterm eating habbits.

Your wife is doing well breastfeeding your son, but that does not mean he needs to be in your bed.
I think that by 17months baby are perfectly capable of being in their own room. I breastfed mine until 22months, but they were in their own room by 6months.

I have a friend who made that mistake, and her 5 year old daughter is still coming to bed with her. Talk frankly to your wife and maybe take it in turns to go to your baby's room to confort him if he cried, until he gets used to it.

Everything that has been said here by way of advice is available in pretty much every baby or childcare book in every bookshop in every town in the country.

If it was information that this man and his wife needed, all they had to do was go out and buy a simple book, and follow the directions, or ask the HV.

Millions and millions of parents have successfully taken care of babies and have co-slept or gone the GF route and every point in between, according to what they thought appropriate for themselves and their babies. A good few posters here, myself included, have managed to get babies sleeping on their own. You make up your mind to do it and you do it. Job done. The crucial part is wanting to do it, feeling it's high time.

AnnaLies came here because his wife is either stonewalling him or actively telling him where to get off with his ideas about the breastfeeding and the co-sleeping. The problem is not that the baby is sleeping in their bed or breastfeeding, it's that he doesn't want either, while his wife does. They are both willing to risk the relationship over this.

Want to say, Mojo, sleeping in the parents' bed as a baby or toddler has no relation to coming to the parents' bed years later. My first two DCs slept in the cot from day one and were frequent night visitors, not every night, but frequent. A lot of children end up in their parents' beds for any number of reasons but it can't be ascribed to co-sleeping as babies or toddlers. The last three of the DCs co-slept, and they also arrived in the bed from time to time after making the move to their own toddler beds (which was relatively easy to accomplish even for the most wakeful and screechy one).

Unless you're talking about a child here who has never slept in a bed of her own.

'I have a friend who made that mistake, and her 5 year old daughter is still coming to bed with her'

Why mistake? Maybe his wife actually enjoys cosleeping and BF.

Why should his wants trump his wife's and babies? It's such a short time, he's going to have years and years andyears (hopefully) of sharing his wife's bed.

And FWIW, the child I didn't cosleep with from the start ad who was moved into his own room earliest? He's the one who is the most frequent night-time visitor. It's not necessarily linked.

argh, *baby's

Annalies you sound like my ex... and he was a complete uncaring tosser.

I am not going to comment on whether this is genuine, or if real, how supportive the OP is of his wife and how realistic his expectations are of

As someone whose husband has taken flexible hours at great sacrifice to be a SAHD which allows me to work three days, who slings our toddler everywhere, who ever never complained when banished to the sofa because his wife and daughter were taking up all the bed and who never once moaned about not having sex (I really really have not felt like it until my period came back a month ago, I think you'll know my views on the OP.

But other people might read this and I was tearing my hair out with sleep and feeding to sleep so I'll repeat what I put on another post in case it's of use.

Apols length

OK, I will add a note here that although I had thought I had weaned my 23 month old daughter, she actually still does sometimes 'feed' if she comes into out bed. Not sure she's drinking much but it beats getting up at 5.30 am and I'm happy that if she wants the comfort and familiarity, I'll give it. What I needed to change was the co-sleeping all night and feeding to sleep.

Our breastfeeding relationship up until 21 or so months was frequent, through-the-night, always feeding to sleep. I was getting increasingly ragged and yes, it was affecting my relationship (although my husband is, was and as a part-time SAHD incredibly supportive of co-sleeping/AP style. I also didn't have a period until a month or so ago and I want to TTC.

Between months 19-20 I'd cut down the day feeds (I work three days and DH used to bring her to where I worked and I'd feed her at lunchtimes) and that actually went well. A bit upset here and there but distracted and cuddled and we still slung her (still do) so she felt close.

Basically the serious weaning was tied up with the sleep. My daughter's talking and understanding are good so I basically took her to Ikea, got her to choose a bed and we did up her room properly. Really made a fuss about it. Also talked to her about feeding to sleep and how that was ending but that I would still feed her before a story.

She was excited and seemed happy so I pressed ahead. Bath, bed, feed then a story then popped into bed. I stayed at the end of the bed and made generic soothing noises and stroked her while she cried (angry rather than desolate) for an hour. She slept through that night. I fed her in the morning.

I continued this for about a month and after a holiday where we'd regressed back to feeding to sleep (I kind of had to, share villa with friends and she woke because she was in our room) when we came back I just decided that I would stop. In fact she made it easy by not asking. But she asked the next night and I demurred.

She's had cows milk, water from doidy's and isn't a huge drinker, but a good eater and eater of fruit so this whole weaning process wasn't about meal replacement, or getting a certain amount of ounces.

On an emotional level, now the dust has settled, I can see that although I gave her a nudge we picked a good time. But it was hard letting go - some days I'd fed 18 hours out of 24 (she was a bit prem and dinky so I would feed very often) and although the 1-2 hour wakings were completely doing my head/sanity in, the whole thing shaped my early relationship with her and there were some really truly lovely times (oddly at 3am)

But I'm happy that we did it (I would have probably left her to self wean completely but for the fact it was suppressing my fertility). And she seems happy. And if she wants it in the early hours (not on nights where I have to get up at 5,30 am though) she can have it.

Good luck. The anticipation of it for me was worse than doing it.

What I wanted to add was that at 18 months if you're feeding to sleep or feeding for naps (the times I was pinned to the sofa unable to get drinks/pee...) and haven't had a night off from bedtime duties it can seem bleak and never ending. And yes, you can feel bitter that all your non breastfeeding mother friends are out having fun, leaving their babies with grandparents, husbands can get them to bed.

I honestly thought I'd be doing this until she was three.

But their understanding and ability to accept that the frequency has to change is greater than you think from 18 months on. Their needs drift to becoming wants. And sure, if you still want to feed 4 times a night then that's fine and I did this while working part time with very early starts. But if you want this to end, then don't feel too bad that you need to give them a nudge. I'm pretty AP but something had to give for me too and actually I could handle a bit of upset obviously it's nothing like CC but soothing them another way on the few days it would take as they get used to it isn't going to harm them. And if it really doesn't go well, put it off for a month or so.

Oh and we all eat together in the evening - about 6.30pm, then it's a long bath and story and she's usually tucked up by 7.45, asleep (I always wait on end of bed watching Sopranos on my iPod) usually half an hour after that. She's had a bedtime routine since a few months old so I guess that's helped.

I don't specifically giver her pre bedtime milk but give her a cup or an adult bottle (small) of water by her bed - she's never taken a normal baby bottle and hates sippy cups.

mathanxiety - actually I disagree that the OP's DW is not doing what the OP wants because it isn't what she wants. You don't know that for sure.

I can see a bit of me in her actually. It might just be she is so exhausted and ground down by the whole breastfeeding/co-sleeping that she just doesn't have the energy to do anything to improve the situation. I have been there - sleeping with a child in your bed is not conducive to a good nights sleep. I wanted DS2 out of our bedroom when he got to 16 mths. He was in there still for very good reasons, albeit in a cot for at least some of the night sometimes all night if he slept through, but it was time for him to go into his room. It didn't happen because we (DH and I) couldn't face dealing with the transition. Having faced the lost evenings stuck at the end of the bed with DS1 and all the upset and resentment that goes with it (one of you misses out on the evening whilst the other gets to do their own thing) I didn't fancy doing it all over again with DS2, it was easier to just leave things as they were, even if it wasn't what we wanted. And yes, I might even have called myself lazy.

So yes, the OP might be an abusive husband or a great hairy toed troll but equally he might just be a bloke who can't see the wood from the trees and who is trying to carry the whole family onto the next stage, a stage of their life that both he and his wife want to go to but don't know how.

Trying to catch him out all the time is sounding a bit petty tbh. He doesn't know what to do, he came for advice, he has probably, like a lot of us I would suggest, changed his mind about just how much he wants to give away on here - so he ends up sounding muddled. We don't all have photographic memories, our thoughts evolve so just give him a break. The OP was clumsy but to me he sounds like a typical man in his way of getting his point of view across. He misjudged his tone and forgot he was dealing with a lot of women. He doesn't necessarily make him a bad person or husband!

And by the way, what is wrong with suggesting that a 17mth old child only needs milk during the day - plenty of children sleep through the night at that age and don't breast feed or have any other feed. It isn't wrong. If you can survive on night after night of interrupted sleep then fine but not everybody can.

And if everybody bought a childcare book and just got on with it there would be no need for MN, now would there?!

Frankly, I don't think we should post on this thread unless the OP's wife comes and says that she actually does agree with everything he's said.

There is not the slightest indication of "we" in the OP - and it was only when challenged that he came up with the "This is what we both want"

And the user name is the last straw.

OP - Just going on our own experience I would say that there will be no quick fix here and I think you would better off tackling it in stages. It would be kinder for all of you but especially for your daughter who had no say in how things were set up in the first place.

I would start with the night feeds first. We did this when DS was about 20 months. Whenever he woke in the night looking for a boob he got a little cup of milk from me instead. Naturally he was upset at the change and it was helpful to have him in bed to soothe the tears and settle him back off to sleep. It took a couple of nights of perseverance and singing 'Here We Go Looby Lou' on a loop but it worked. He didn't particularly want the milk and ended up sleeping through for the first time in ever.

As for putting your little one in her own bed, I will be less help here simply because we never really did it. DS was 8 when he first properly slept in his own bed/bedroom. Until then we were a 100% co-sleeping family.

However, from day one he did have a bed time which it doesn't sound as though your little one has. This might be something to try and initiate in the family bed before trying to do it in a separate bed and bedroom.

Having a bed time was crucial because it gave DP and I time alone in the evenings. The family bed was not where sex took place clearly, we had a spare room and the whole of the rest of the house for that.

I would never recommend our parenting choices to anybody because I feel that it is a personal decision and everyone has to do what they feel is right for them. All I would say though is have patience and make sure that every decision you make is a joint one.

Good luck.

Also to add, I usually always settled my daughter in my bed and then sneak out so I could watch a film/have a few drinks with DH and or friends and she's sleep for a few hours (tho too often she'd wake after 45 mins) before resettling.

I think I needed that physical separation for a couple of hours in the evening.

Can your wife countenance this?

'what is wrong with suggesting that a 17mth old child only needs milk during the day?'

What's wrong here is that it supplies the ammunition to achieve this:
'So really asap i want her in her own cot, own room, off the breast, and in bed early evening. tips plz!'

That's I, not 'we'.

Saying a 17 month old doesn't need milk in the night for nutrition is saying there's no physical need for the breastfeeding at night. AnnaLies clearly does not see what the co-sleeping and the breastfeeding means to his wife in the context of the mother-child relationship -- arming him with nutritional information about milk means he has 'science' on his side to use to override her wishes. Maybe he doesn't want to express out loud that he fears his wife has chosen the baby over him, maybe this is why he chooses to call her 'lazy' instead of a stonewaller. He seems to have problems perceiving how he himself is coming across, and I think he has problems seeing the relationship dynamics with his wife, and his wife with the baby, too.

OP thinks his wife is just 'very lazy'

OP - Would you be prepared to read through this thread with your DW (dear wife)?
You could go through the suggestions you've been given together.
If you wouldn't read through it with her, why is that?

OP

Why is your wife lazy??? While I would never have gone down the co sleeping demand breast feeding route myself I wouldn't call anyone who did lazy?

I think this is a very real issue that Annalies was honest and open enough to come and talk about, while lots of men are in this situation (getting no quality sleep whilst co-sleeping) and say nothing for fear of being labelled an unsympathetic bastard or far worse. Which is exactly what has happened here.
Why is it so hard to give this man some practical advice and help? We are all very supportive when women come on with all kinds of problems.
Annalies, I agree that only you and your wife can sort this out through sitting down and having a proper chat about how you both feel. There might be things that your wife is thinking that she has been unable to voice so far, or you've both just been so busy with a little baby that you haven't had the time or energy for such a discussion.
I truly feel for you because there is NOTHING worse than not having a proper night's sleep in your own bed. Best of luck with it all. I hope this experience hasn't put you off posting on mumsnet in future, we need a few more dads on here IMO.

tc - I think he's been labelled unsympathetic because that's how he came across. When he didn't immediately get the response he wanted, he went into attack mode. It kind of puts people off.

Hello! Goodness rather an emotive thread! THought I'd still add my tuppence as I can empathise with Annalies and his wife.

My DD was a boob monster until 8 months old at which point I'd had enough re lack of sleep (also had a 2 year old to look after) and decided to very gradually wean her.

The way to do this is:

1. make the decision to do it (this is not easy as BF is a very emotional thing, but if you make the decision and stick to it it's actually very simple)

2. gradually cut down on BFs- offer cow's milk in a cup instead at the times you would normally BF, don't worry if it is refused, it will be taken when baby/toddler really wants it

3. tweak routine as Boffinmum said. You have to be strong and consistent, if you are the baby/toddler will learn very fast what the new routine is. If your wife is unsure about carrying through then offer to do it yourself (eg if your daughter is crying in her room you settle her).

4)re the BF- at 17 months your wife could just decide to quit completely and your daughter would be fine. She may cry for a couple of days but then she'll be drinking milk from a cup like the rest of her peers (or 98% of them). If this is too hard ie if there is a lot of BF going on then gradually give up instead, eg go down to 4 feeds a day/3/2/1 over a week. Your toddler will probalby not drink milk from a cup though until either only on 1 feed a day or given up completely. They don't need need much milk at this age and can get a lot from one BF.

Do message me if you want any more specifics. Really you need to have a frank chat with your wife and right down a plan on a sheet of A4 that you're both happy with. If she's not on board it won't work. It's hard to make decisions when you are sleep deprived, but I'm all for a bit of short time pain for long term pain.

long term gain that should say!!!

Well, if you talk to your wife the way you've responded to the people on here, no wonder!!

Seeker, I don't see that rule applied to the women on MN. They don't have to come on with their husbands and partners giving an alternative side of the story in case they are being biased.

Many posts on this thread use the first person, but none of those people have been picked on and the pronouns highlighted and the person assumed to be dishonest.

This thread is very sexist IMO.

Absolutely, BoffinMum. What she said in every post. Moreover, AnnaLies may have expressed himself in a dubitable way in his OP, but no way would anyone have attacked a woman making those assertions about her husband in a post in the same way, and essentially, what he's saying sounds fair enough. Questioning his standpoint is fine, but attacking him in the way most people have is totally uncalled for.