controlled crying...don't we all do it in the end?

[mamacherry]

Who does it? Is it ok? Will it cause lasting damage? Don't all parents inevitably do it in the end at some point or other, whether they admit it or not? Considering it with my 4 months old dd2 as she started sleeping though the night 8pm to 6am at 8 weeks but is now waking regularly and I am sure she doesn't need milk - she's massive!

cote, what you have described further up isn't controlled crying

so I aplogise to you for my comments, they are not meant for you

you may want to stop calling what you have done controlled crying as many other people will find it uncomfortable

or you may not mind

and op, no not all people do it eventually, definitey not

Good, rational post, Flight Attendant.

I find it interesting that in so many other walks of life society naturally assumes the 'precautionary principle'. Eg, mobile phone masts, nuclear decommissioning etc.

Yet, for our children, people are happy to use a method which has no scientific support.

By all means, every parent and every child is different - and it may 'work' for some of you - but shouldn't childcare gurus and the like at least take responsibility for adopting a precautionary approach when they preach child rearing techniques?

Ok, that was the rational bit.

FWIW - as pure anecdote, my ex-DH was subjected to 'cry it out' and a strict feeding and sleep regime back in the 70s. On the surface, he is a likeable, well-balanced, happy man. But, underneath, he has difficulties with depression and insecurity and suffers from an inability to express his emotions by, eg crying. To make it worse, although he cannot express his feelings well, he craves physical attachment such as hugs and cuddles.

I have not one shred of evidence but it would not surprise me one bit if the regime that 'taught him' to sleep through the night also 'taught' him that there was no point expressing how he feels because no one is going to respond anyway. After all, his mother didn't pick him up when he cried as a baby, so that's what as become the norm to him. I suspect that they only way to unpick that is via expensive therapy.

So, personally, I could not subject my DS to any form of sleep training. Purely on a precautionary basis.

I completely accept that this is a totally anecdotal post - but then there are lots of anecdotal 'CC worked for my DC' posts here too.

Oh God, Isaw - well, as anecdotes go I can't see any reason why that one would not be relevant.

How very sad for your Ex DH.

It seems very clear that a link between how he was 'nurtured' and the eventual development of the problems he suffers with is highly likely.

I am sure there will be other stories that would appear to counter this, but fwiw I don't see how something like what happened to him as a baby could not have had an impact.

My youngest sister was reportedly a real cryer and with a sibling close in age and others to look after she was left in distress much more than we were. I've had a 5am call from her already today, floods of tears, another tale of woe involving a prick of a bloke treating her like shit and so-called friends being no support at all. She's a complete mess with no self-esteem and a desperate desire to please even the lowest of lowlifes. She's 25 now - it's more than teen angst :(

Trinity, isn't "some minutes of crying over a few days" exactly what controlled crying is all about? That's what I'm talking about (3 nights to be precise). What is that if not CC?

Fanjo, yes touchy and defensive when accused of doing CC for my comfort and convenience when I was at serious danger both physically and mentally from sleep deprivation. Pretty ridiculous and offensive to suggest I did it just cos I'm a lazy cow who can't be bothered to get up to my kids. Believe me, both my DC still wake in the night, but they now wake for a reason other than just being disturbed and not being able to self settle. I was up five times with DS1 last night because he's teething. I don't just ignore them now .

Isaw, your anecdote is sad but CIO is not what we're talking about and I have never subjected either of my children to a strict routine of any sort.

Flightattendant, you're very lucky that you have children that sleep well. Enjoy it. Many of us do not and we have to do what we have to do.

Eddie - thankyou, but they didn't always sleep well - as babies they had the usual teething, discomfort, worried feelings as other babies.

When I say they sleep well now, I mean they have reached a stage where they do sleep very well without the help of controlled crying.

so it can be done. However badly they slept as infants I don't think I would have resorted to CC - but then my situation isn't the same as yours and you do, as you say, have to do what you have to do.

I did cc with (14 months) recently tto dyop her waking 3-4 times a night. DP was too exhausted to work properly and the older two girls were overtired at school and nursery.

Sometimes the baby has to fit in with what the family needs as a whole and if she's on the psychoanalyst's couch at 21, well so be it.

I wouldn't do it on a baby under 12 months either as I don't think it works.

With DD1 I did it at 4 months on advice of HV but it was awful and I stopped quite quickly. I then did it at 15 months and - with a strong bedtime routine and lots of cuddles - it work and aged 6 she still goes to bed at 7pm and sleeps till 6.30am.

I also did it to DD2 at 14 months and it worked, ditto DD3.

I think it is important up offer lots of cuddles and reassurance and at that age they know they are not being abandoned forever.

I was left to cry it out (which I don't think is quite the same thing?) as a baby. I remember the desperate abandoned feeling of being alone and helpless and nobody coming. I am still quite insecure and find it hard to trust those close to me.

I haven't done CC with my DTs. Never would.

We used the No Cry Sleep Solution. They slept through from 8 months.

I remember the feeling too, Bosoms

and I was far older - about 5 or 6, being left to cry in the night because I was frightened.

This is why I wouldn't do it to my children I suppose.

I guess alot of this depends upon your definition of cc. Most people using it don't leave their children for more than a few minutes. We go in, let them know we're nearby, comfort them and then leave them for a little bit to see if they settle. Do you think we're all talking about the same thing?

Probably not.
However your definition, though it sounds fairly harmless in itself, baffles me a bit - I mean if you are going in anyway, why not just pick up the child? Or am I missing the point!

That's right. My version of CC is to put them down and leave them for a couple of minutes, go back cuddle and lie them back down again.

When they have nightmares they come and see us, sometimes they finish the night in our bed. DD3 wakes sometimes and gets taken in to our bed if she won't settle. We're not monsters!

To be fair, there are often threads on here where people mention CC taking for example 45 minutes, or even a few hours, and to my mind if a child is crying for this long, despite regular visits or checks, it's just wrong to let them go on.

Yes, you're missing the point! The point is that they are alone when they actually fall asleep, so that they learn that is okay.

I think DD1 took about an hour. In fact I was on mumsnet being reassured by some lovely people in between visits.

It had to be done though. I was pregnant, we were both exhausted and wanted time together in the evening. The alternative was lying on the floor next to the cot with my hand through the bars. For hours.

I don't think people do it lightly. Certainly each time I have had to be fairly desperate .

Yes I realise that Isitme, but why should they fall asleep alone?

I always found I wanted to be with mine if they were awake, and only really wanted to leave them or felt 'right' doing so when they were asleep.

In fact the only times I've had problems with their sleep times (which were fairly random initially! and still can be) were when I either had company (like a boyfriend or something) or when I was ill myself.

There was a lot of pressure from the couple of blokes I went out with, to get shot of the child as soon as possible, obviously so we could have sex...I felt it was unfair on ds, but then in a proper family dynamic where the man is their father too, I might have felt more of a division of loyalties.

DP is so far fine about the kids and our existing system, which I am very grateful for. But the feeling of having to compromise is familiar to me so I get it to an extent.

...of wanting to compromise, I mean.

Oh, I see. The idea is that if they are able to fall asleep alone, they will be able to get back to sleep in the many small arousals that naturally occur during the night for both children and adults. I think the theory is that they will need all the same conditions to be present for them to fall asleep, so if you are there at bedtime, they will need you again if they wake in one of those small arousals.

That was what was happening with DS when he was waking every hour - basically at the end of each sleep cycle. And he needed us to help him get back to sleep again.

After we did CC, he would sleep through several sleep cycles and then wake up when he was ready for a feed.

Does that help?

Trinity - if you don't think that what Cote describes is CC, what do you think it involves?

Because what Cote describes is pretty much exactly what Ferber says to do (except he would recommend not picking your child up. But stroking, caressing them in situ no problem).

I'm intrigued now!

Surely it's not about 'loyalties' to either partner or child, it us about functioning as a family unit? Everyone has a little give and take. In our family kids are in bed 7.30pm so DP and I have some peace and time to talk, organise stuff, study, go out!

It's not me choosing him over my children's needs, it's making sure everyone's needs are met.

Thanks, Isitmeor. That makes a bit more sense now.

I still don't hold with the theory as mine didn't really operate like that - still self settled if they were able, in the night. But anyway, I see what you were on about.

Semi - yes, I agree, about functioning as a family unit. However I would still put the immediate needs of a small baby at the front of the queue, simply because they cannot wait - they don't have the skills. The older a person is the greater their ability to wait (until old age of course where things start to reverse)

so in our family, what the baby needs comes first, then ds, then me (and now DP) unless one of the older ones has a very urgent need such as the earlier example of a child standing in a puddle, while the baby is crying! Or mummy needing a poo, etc etc.. Hopefully these incidents are far and few between

Well small babies - of course.

But older kids - in bed. No arguments.

LOL

I'm glad we are experiencing a confluence in the thread. Cannot leave it on a dodgy note!