controlled crying...don't we all do it in the end?

[mamacherry]

Who does it? Is it ok? Will it cause lasting damage? Don't all parents inevitably do it in the end at some point or other, whether they admit it or not? Considering it with my 4 months old dd2 as she started sleeping though the night 8pm to 6am at 8 weeks but is now waking regularly and I am sure she doesn't need milk - she's massive!

Never used CC, however, wasn't necessary because we co-slept. Just seemed to work best for us and only relatively recently dd decided she wanted to sleep in her own room during night (had nap in own room until then). She raised it herself and said she preferred it as she wanted more space. So no tears, all remarkably easy.

Have never done it, would never do it. I would say DS started off as a reasonably average sleeper at night (sleeping through by about 6 months, though a fairly early waker), but a crap sleeper by day (woke up at the end of every sleep cycle, so never asleep for longer than 20-30 mins). Learnt to sleep through his sleep cycles during the day at about 8 months (not claiming any credit - he just seemed to get to an age where he could do it). He's now almost 3, and sleeps like an angel most of the time. Even now I would never leave him to cry - always go in immediately if he does wake up in the night. Just couldn't bear to think of him alone and wanting mummy. But I'm lucky I've never had to endure the kind of sleep problems that some people have - I'm not sure how I would have handled it if I had (though pretty sure I wouldn't have tried CC).

If all the baby's primary needs are met-they have been fed, changed, are not too hot or too cold etc. then I do not think its a problem to leave them longer than 3mins to cry. If you spend enough time with your child you can distinguish the different cries...a hungry cry is very different from a tired whimper, or overtired hysterical crying. Obv.you would respond differently to the different types of crying, but I see nothing wrong with leaving a baby who is simply crying a bit because they are tired to settle themselves. Crying is not just a negative thing that needs to be stopped asap by running straight in...it is the childs way of communicating.

very sensible Roo83. You would be surprised about the number of people who will see you as the devil for suggesting this!

Crying is not just a negative thing that needs to be stopped asap by running straight in...it is the childs way of communicating.

If you were trying to communicate something would you like to see some clear evidence of someone attempting to understand what it was that you were trying to say? I agree that crying is a baby's primary method of 'talking'. As such, I think it should be responded to as much as is practical, given other demands such as older children or your own mental health.

Crying is the only way a baby has of communicating anything urgent/distressing. It's not necessarily to stop it asap that a parent would attend to a crying baby either, but to provide the comfort of their company.

And I don't see anyone as any kind of devil for suggesting that crying may safely be ignored just because it makes no sense to you, and you have decided that the need for the parent's company and comforting is not a need. Not a devil, no. A product of a certain kind of cultural attitude to babies, yes.

There's no need to put words in anyone's mouth on MN, SingItBack. Most posters here are capable of using their own words all by themselves.

Roo, when you say primary needs your're totally ignoring the psychological and emotional needs of the child.

Physical needs might have been a better term.

I don't think it's wise to ignore the other stuff at any stage.

Have you never heard an older child chatting to themselves/singing or talking to teddies before they go asleep? My son does this all the time, and I wouldnt dream of going in, scooping him up with a 'shhhh shhh there there' and trying to silence him....sometimes children and babies need alone time for their brains to process what has been going on in the day. Do not underestimate how stimulating you going in and interupting when they are simply trying to wind down, can be. If my baby were to be suffering psychologically, do you not think crying would become more distressed?

"Primary needs"

Since when has psychological well-being not been a "primary need"?

I'd a damn sight rather a child of mine had a dirty nappy on for a bit too long than be left to cry alone.

Please re-read the last line of my post-I think you are completetly missing the point I'm trying to make. If a child is distressed physically or psychologically their cry would be distressed...a very different type of cry.

"Crying is not just a negative thing that needs to be stopped asap by running straight in...it is the childs way of communicating."

IS this the last sentence you mean? When I try to communicate with someone I am upset if they don't respond - whay would it be different for a baby?

The last line, posted right above your comment 'If my baby were to be suffering psychologically do you not think their cry would be distressed?'

I don't actually think that. And I think that waiting until a child's cry is distressed means that they have already been through wondering, worried and sad.

Agree with seeker.
Roo in your post just below you talk about a child 'chatting or singing to its teddies' and then you go on to say ;if they were suffering psychologically the cry would be different' or such

so is it a cry or a chat? I think if a child is crying at all, they are usually unhappy.

If a child is chattering away then of course you don't need to intervene, but that's completely off topic. We're talking about crying and yes, crying equals distress, however you might want to dress it up.

for example a very small baby will normally give several cues for hunger before crying or even making a noise. Ds2 used to be in his cot, I would watch him unseen. Often he would sing. Other times laugh, make gurgling noises.

If he was asleep and started to wake, he would first of all move slightly, he would wriggle a little bit. Then his hand would go up to his mouth - as though gesturing for a drink. He would roll a bit, looking for the breast, rooting, realising he was in need.

THEN if nobody came, he would make a little grunt. Then wait. Then a little 'uh-huh' like the beginning of a cry. It aas only after this he would actually start to properly cry.

You get a good few minutes sometimes to respond to the cues, before the crying begins. Once I realised his mode of communicating, if I was present when the cues began I would respond to the first and it never went any further. His hand went to his mouth and I lifted him up and fed him - or moved towards him, and fed him, if we were in bed.

Once he had felt the need to cry he was already being ignored on several levels.

Did you not read my post at all? Obv.you respond initially to ensure they are not hungry, dirty etc. as stated above....but if you spend enough time with your children (I'm a SAHM) you recognise each cry for what it is. Crying does not always equal distress-in tiny babies they cant chatter (again if you re-read my post I was talking about older children) and I dont think this is off subject. I was simply making the point that a baby cant talk...so a tired winge may be all they can use whilst settling. I am keen for my children to express themselves, and would not be rushing in to silence them at any age.

Yes I read your post, Roo. You didn't explain very clearly what you meant, and I still don't really get it.

I think we will have to agree to disagree because to me a cry always indicates distress. Do you cry if you're not distressed? I don't - unless I am transported by joy of course..but I don't think small children or babies have that way of crying.

Roo, told you that your very reasonable post would elicit all sorts of disagreement

Do Not get drawn in to it, it is a WASTE of time.

And which very reasonable post was that?

Yes, I was also wondering what part of crying does not indicate distress of some degree too...

SingItBack, no need for the Greek chorus routine.

"
Do Not get drawn in to it, it is a WASTE of time."

Yes - you might even be tempted to question yourself and we can't have that, can we?

I was considering trying controlled crying so started to look it up on the net and have now changed my mind having read this discussion....

My baby boy is 8 months old and has always been a fantatsic sleeper, he settles himself at 7 and doesn't wake until 7/7:30am!!

However, the last fortnight he has started waking up around 11 and is wide awake and doesn't seem to be able to settle himself back to sleep. I go to him straight away and cuddle, rock and comfort him. I have resorted to putting him into bed with me in the spare room - not ideal. He falls asleep after within 2 hours of waking up.

Any ides?

dannyjo, he'll be working on the 37 week developmental spurt - what causes the 8/9 month sleep regression. My DS predictably does this in the run up to every developmental spurt, and it always stops by itself (even though he's a poor sleeper in general). I find he's always up for an hour and a half once he's properly awake - there's some biological basis to it.

There is a great book explaining it called The Wonder Weeks by two scientists who researched all the developmental spurts up to about 18 months.

They say:

"Your baby may start sleeping less well. Most babies do. She may refuse to go to bed, fall asleep less easily, and wake up sooner. Some are especially hard to get to sleep during the day. Others at night. And some stay up longer both during the day and at night."

There?s more information about it here, here and here.

Anecdotally, good sleepers tend to go back to being good sleepers once the spurt is past, without any effort on your part. Previously poor sleepers may need some help to re-learn how to settle themselves between sleep cycles.

I was going to say you need AngelDog dannyjo.

I always agree completely with her. When going through a developmental spurt they can't self settle like they used to. It's frustrating for everybody involved but doesn't last forever.

It makes such a difference when you know it's just a phase! :)

And on the original topic, no I've not done CC yet (DS is 13 months) and I would have to be at risk of harming DS before I'd consider it - but he increases tension by crying so would scream for hours. As an adult, I've cried for 2 hours without stopping due to tiredness and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I'm a tension increaser too.

NCSS / PUPD methods have worked for him, although I've not used them to deal with his current waking pattern because co-sleeping works so well for us that I can't actually force myself to wake up enough to do any of it in the middle of the night.