controlled crying...don't we all do it in the end?

[mamacherry]

Who does it? Is it ok? Will it cause lasting damage? Don't all parents inevitably do it in the end at some point or other, whether they admit it or not? Considering it with my 4 months old dd2 as she started sleeping though the night 8pm to 6am at 8 weeks but is now waking regularly and I am sure she doesn't need milk - she's massive!

kalo12 - evidence that proves that theory please?

its john bowlby's theory of attachment. he's a child psychologist. you would have to google it to find out more. i can't remember all the research and evidence, only his basic theories, sorry. i know people may want concrete proof but theories are just theories, based on research. its very difficult to 'prove' psychological theories as there are so many influencing factors and variables and ultimately everything has to be a compromise.

of course cc is infinately better than having a mother driven mad with despair that she feels anger towrads her child, and some babies are naturally more sleepy, less demanding, more independent than others and can learn to fall asleep quite easily. I am all for freedom of choice but informed choices are better, (i have an MA in child development - although not all of it on babies) and don't want to be judgemental but i do not agree with cc. however i have sacrificed my relationship with my dh as i often end up co sleeping with my baby. life is about compromises.

i am putting forward my knowledge/beliefs as i think the good thing about forums are the wide range of opinions

No, we certainly don't all do CC.

Ours co-slept until they were sleeping 10 hours plus (seven to nine months, usually coincided with crawling - we've just been through it with DS), when we moved them into a cot.

Bit too early to be definitive about DS but the DDs are both epic sleepers.

We never leave DD (14 mths)

She has long periods of sleeping through, punctuated by discrete phases of two or three weeks (9 months, 13 months) usually when teething/about to walk/crawl when she doesn't sleep through/having bout of separation anxiety.

However even when she doesn't sleep through its not that bad. Often she'll go back off with a little cuddle. If she is really unsettled she comes in with us.

Anyway the point is that after a few days these phases come to end without us doing anything particulalry. She just starts sleeping through again.

Eg recently she had a couple of weeks of being v anxious about me leaving the room once I had put her down. I had to stay with her till she was asleep. But this passed and now she turns over and really doesn't seem to care whether I am there or not!

I guess my point is that they do their own thing, regardless of what techniques you try to deploy on them!

PS If I tried CC on DD, she would just get beside herself and the ante would be totally upped! She wouldn't go back to sleep.

Kalo - What makes you (or John Bowlby) think that sleep-trained babies sleep through after three nights because "that is how long it takes to break trust"?

Has anyone carried out scientific tests to see if sleep trained babies no longer trust their mothers? If not, would you not agree that John Bowlby's theory is more like a hypothesis?

Could it not be a number of other things, like "that is how long it takes for baby's body to adjust to not feeding in the night", or "that is how long it takes for baby to get used to sleeping on his own"?

ah, i see this one is progressing as per prediction...

leaves thread to rattle on

I know. Waiting for someone to quote the study of e infamous Romanian orphanage now

DD is 3.9..still haven't done it

Did cc with both of mine, at around 8 months,

DS1 - cried for 20 mins first night, 5 mins second.

DS2 - cried 10 mins for one night.

Saved me from going insane (they were waking every hour for about 3 months)

They are both really well adjusted, happy, children. Far better than if I had carried on with no sleep being unable to function well in the day.

Of course they occasionally wake up now (3 &4) with nightmares/illness and we comfort them, but back then it was because they wanted to suckle to sleep.

Ds is 3y7m. Have never done CC, never will I wouldnt imagine.

He didnt do sleeping hardly at all between 3m and 12m then he'd sleep 9pm - 1am and then be awake until 4/5am and then sleep until 7/8am. That was it, no naps. It was a nighhtmare but I never considered cc.

We've followed his lead with the only thing we've never allowed being him sleeping in our bed and he sleeps 11+ hours at night now and has for about 20m. Usually 7-6.

The general trend of this and other such threads is that parents who have done CC or similar for a few nights have DC who sleep through from then on. Parents who have not done CC because they have an unsubstantiated belief that their baby will no longer love/trust them have DC who still wake up in the night as children.

Choose the one you will be happier with

I can tell you for a fact that "trust between mother and baby is broken with CC" is utter rubbish, given our DC and many others I know of.

we are lucky if get get 2 nights sleep a week...(DD has SN though) Just still couldn't do it..some might say I'm mad - I don't judge others who do though (except maybe on tiny babies)

I haven't avoided it because I feel it will break the bond though, mainly because DD can't speak and so I feel it's a bit harsh for HER.

I don't think anyone here is saying that a child with SN should be treated the same as a NT one.

I hope you get some sleep soon. Sleep deprivation for years must be devastating.

oh no, I know noone is saying that. just wanted to say that although we haven't done it, we have different reasons for not doing so.

It is hard, 2 nights a week is an improvement though, was none until about 3 months ago.

I think all the melodrama about leaving them to cry and orphanages is all a bit much. Love it when people say I never leave my child to cry!! Glad they never cry when you're having a poo then

Seriously though surely it's better to let them cry a little, reassure them it's ok and them learn sleep's a nice thing. My DSD had terrible sleep associations but we started a routine and were consistent with our nightime approach. She is now 6, sleeps really well here but still sleeps terribly at home (where there are no set mealtimes, bedtime routine, etc)

Totally agree with you Minxie (ESPECIALLY your earlier post).

I don't really get all this cc thing really.

I never left my DCs to cry for hours, for night after night. However, I did stop feeding them to sleep, cuddling them to sleep etc etc from quite a young age (weeks old rather than months), and they learned to settle themselves. This sometimes involved them crying for a minute or two, but more typically involved me lying next to the moses basket making shushing noises and or patting them gently. Gradually the need to do this diminished, and they could settle themselves perfectly well.

The people I know who have resorted to cc (and have found it horrendous) are the ones who have, for example, spent 12m bfing their child to sleep and then suddenly decided they don't want to do it anymore.

Now IMO that is a lot crueller to the child than not doing it to start with IYSWIM.

Actually, I was just thinking, it should be possible to construct a randomly-controlled trial where children are allocated to groups according to the amount and type of sleep training they have done with their children and experts in attachment theory correctly identify which group each child belongs to based on observing how attached they are to their carers.

Although I guess this would rely on parents not lying about what sleep training they've done, so maybe it wouldn't work after all...

My understanding is that the only children where they can really see this is those who have been in extremely poor situations, e.g. neglectful orphanages or some parents where the children are eventually taken into care by social services and struggle to form attachments with adopters/foster carers.

Generalising from this to controlled crying is not science imho.

I always get confused as to what CC is. people have different ideas on it.
It varies alot. some if you let them cry at all for even a nano second, it seesm that qualifies.

not at all, never have done it with my girls, never will

chronically fatigued but do not agree with trying to 'break' their spirit

Trinity - it's not about breaking their spirit . It's about letting them learn to fall asleep by themselves. Do you see no distinction?

Oblomov - I agree, a lot of things are called CC which are nothing like what Ferber actually recommends.

I don't know why I bothered; there are so many bigots in this thread! I think the idea is to gather advice on MN, not a scolding for trying something that might help them and their child
For all you perfect parents who NEVER let their children cry for more than a nano second..... Well done you should be crowned parents of the * century

isitmeor

when controlled crying is used NO, I dont see any distinction

all three of my girls learnt to fall asleep on their own in time

It seems to me people make the mistake of thinking of their children as little people too much.
Babies do not think and feel the same way that adults or even small children do, they are entirely selfish and have no comprehension of time.

They put themselves in the babies place and imagine how they would feel left crying at night,(because they would only cry if they were really upset, but we all know babies don't need to be very upset before they cry)so of course they think CC is cruel and heartless.

I always thought about us as a family, our family can only work and be happy if we all get enough sleep. I'm sure my children benefited much more from having well rested parents than they might of done from an extra cuddle in the middle of the night.