Cultural appropriation or not? Middle name

[FoilWrappedBiscuit]

We wanted to give our new baby my gran's name as a middle name.

My gran's real name is a traditional English name. Think Doris.

But since she was a teenager, everyone has known her as another name, one that is very obviously from another culture. Let's say Parvati. Everyone knows her as Parvati, her husband, her children, everyone - and has done for 70+ years.

Now I knew she got the name Parvati from a film, because she loved the character and thought she was beautiful, and hated her real name. But I only found out recently that the character in the film was portrayed by a white actor using brownface.

This is making me hesitate. The name itself is so bound up with my gran that I'd sort of glossed over my misgivings about giving an English girl an Indian middle name, but this backstory makes me a bit uncomfortable on my daughter's behalf. I'm imagining her growing up, having to explain her middle name... "I'm named after my great gran. No, she wasn't Indian, she just saw a character in brownface and stole the name"... It's not good, is it?? But I want to honour my gran. I've thought about just going for "Doris" but since nobody has called her that name for over 70 years it seems totally pointless. Wwyd??

Will anyone in 20 years time have any idea about the film and the character? I doubt it. You don't need to tell dd anything more than the relation of the name to her gran. The rest isn't relevant to her

I am actually. Of course the nuns understood that in first century Palestine the Holy Family weren't actually called Jesus, Mary and Joseph. They would have been Yeshua, Mariam and probably Yosef.

Mary became the name we use for Mary, Mariam is the Arabic/Muslim version of her name and is likely to be the route of Maria, lots of crossover with Spain and the Muslim world which is probably how it became popular in Spain.

I guess the Quran got Mariam from the same Aramaic roots.

Just use the name if you want. Don't worry about cultural appropriation, one of our friends is of Indian descent and gets called Tom, nobody cares. Its all about labelling and putting people in little boxes.

Use if if it will make you feel good-- but if it will make you uncomfortable (or you think it would cause difficulties for your child) then dont. It is easy enough to say 'it was my gran's name'. But I would have a word with your child when she is older and tell her about the name, for example if it is Parvati, tell her about the goddess Parvati and Hinduism. And when she is old enough you can broach the issue of cultural appropriate and blackface and have a discussion about it. Then you are using the name for good, for knowledge and to support the background it comes from. I'm Indian and Hindu and that is my view.

Also no one really cares about middle names. She doesnt ever have to tell anyone if she doesnt want. My sister's middle name is a state secret that only me and my mother know about.

It could be problematic for her in the future.

If Gran hated Doris, I'm not sure I'd use that. It's not exactly honouring someone to use a name that they detested.

Is there a similar Western name to the Indian name? Or one you like that begins with the same letter? So, inspired by Gran's preferred name but not exactly the same?

I'd have thought you were a opera fan who couldn't spell.

Op if it helps I am White British who has a Caribbean Middle name...
When people hear it (teachers, doctors) It has been mentioned how unusual/uncommon it is, where does it come from, my reply has always been..."I'm named after a lady who loved my mam". No futher questions needed or happen.
Please use it the name, I am proud of my name and would never accept anyone saying it was culturally appropriated as it was the person who mattered not where they were born.
So for you, your child is named after your gran, nothing more or less needs to be said, she's named after a person who loves you.

I have very weird middle names and no one, once, has ever asked me to explain them. Good thing too as I couldn't. I have no idea what my mother was thinking of and have not bothered asking her either.

My mum had a boys name as a middle name. I asked why and she just said it was a family name. I know no more and if she did she wasn't telling.

When your grandma chose the name brownface wasn't an issue. She wasn't being racist. If you're going to use a name, that's the one to go for, not the one she hated. Nobody needs to know WHY she came up with the name - you can lose that in the mists of time. Or just say it was in a film. No reason you should ever have checked it further.

I immediately thought of Jean Simmons too, a pretty obvious one as everyone loves Black Narcissus. I'd use the name if I wanted to though.

Just remember you live in the free world. Do not inadvertently seek oppression through your misguided desire to tick rightthink boxes.

The way you are approaching this is not progress or good for future generations.

You have the name that she was called in Aramaic. The Bible was written in Latin and Greek and this word in those languages is Maria. People across the Christian world will have just got it straight from the Bible in the form they found it there - Maria. In the same way Mariam is a popular Arabic name because that’s what the word is in Arabic and how it appears in the Quran. But we don’t use Maria because of it being Mariam in Arabic or anything to do with Spain, we use it because that’s what it is in Latin and for centuries preaching was done solely in Latin, and still is in many Catholic churches.

Wasn't there a chap who thought that learning Spanish was cultural appropriation if you were from anywhere other than Latin America? (I don't think he was the brightest...) Perhaps that was Reddit.

I'm getting similar vibes from the insistence that Maria shouldn't be a name used by English people. Maria used to be pronounced Mar-eye-a in this country, incidentally. As in Mariah Carey. Is a change of pronunciation cultural appropriation, I wonder...

OP, you are naming your child after your grandmother not the film itself. I would use it.

Anyway, a quick skip across the internet suggests that the name Maria is originally Greek. The Latin form is derived from the Greek name.

So, did those of Hispanic origin appropriate the name from the Greeks?

I think in reality the conversation would go like this: (eg office at lunch hour)
Bob: hey Sarah what's your middle name?
Sarah: oh it's parvati
Bob: that's a bit random, what's the context?
Sarah: it was my gran's name
Bob: oh was she Indian?
No, her real name was actually Doris but she renamed herself after a film character she loved and everyone called her that
Bob: oh that's cool
The end

Yep exactly — it would take a lot of pushing and digging to get down to the "btw the actress was blacking up" part and people don't really do that. For a start, they're almost certainly not actually at all interested in your great-gran and her reasons for having an unusual name.

@veniceorna , I'm Hispanic and I'd find it quite disrespectful if a English white person used 'Maria'

Maria has been in use in the UK for centuries.

God yes, this!

not sure about everybody....I have heard of the book but not the film and would have had no idea of the characters' names or who played them

I am amused at the person who thinks that only Hispanic people are entitled to use the name 'Maria'. It is the Latin form of Miriam/Mariam that has been used across Europe for centuries. Where do you think it comes from ? Yes, it's been very popular in Latin America, that doesn't mean that you own it!

Either they're on a wind-up, or just a very silly ignorant person.

Call her the name, it was effectively your grandmother's name. You are naming your daughter after her, not the character.

To some degree how she came by it is irrelevant, it could just have easily been the name of a character in a book. You can give the context when she's older if you want.

Everyone, I'm pretty sure Veniceorna is a troll. Any Hispanic American who is actually woke-tastic enough to genuinely believe that it's "offensive" for a white person to use the name Maria would never use the word "Hispanic" to describe themselves.

This

Wow love this knowledge!