How to pronounce Talia

[GemLooper]

Would you say Tah-lee-uh or tar-lee-uh?

^Where does a RP accent come from.
No specific area.^

Again, that is at best heavily disputed.

Described in 1917 by a linguist as ‘everyday speech in the families of Southern English persons whose men-folk [had] been educated at the great public boarding-schools.’

Described more recently by the Concise Oxford as ‘the standard accent of English as spoken in the South of England.’

There’s obviously a very strong class overlay but that is also heavily correlated geographically (historically) - the SE was seen as the norm/centre of UMC life.

@Geamhradh

"Jack was about to share his private yacht with his football coach when he received a cable informing him that the engine needed repair"

Here's a sentence we use in my line of work to illustrate how many pronunciations of "a" there are in British English phonology.
It's not 2. and /a:/ and /æ/ aren't the most common.

I love that.

I would Tally-a with a short A sound, as there was two in my primary school who pronounced it that way.

Tah sounds like someone trying to posh it up.

@DinaofCloud9

I'd say barley for Bali. It's just different accents. No big deal.

I'd also say Tal ee a

No, that's a different word.

I think that's the difference between phonology and phonics used in reading schemes, so no, not wrong if it's phonics (which I've always been confused by)

Thanks again Geamhradh. It's confusing all right.

Daniel Radcliffe has also been voice coached to within an inch of his life.

Well maybe he has. He sounds like me. And I haven't. Neither have the people I know that sound the same and live all over the country.

He went to one of the poshest schools in the country

I didn't. Nor the people I know.

and is an ACTOR

Well yes, I have to pick recognisable people with the voices I'm referring too, (big actors/celebs/public figures) because asking you what "my friend Lauren" sounds like doesn't really work.

I can't think of anyone who's going to be known nationwide (so pretty much someone seen by all on TV/film/music industry) who's got a voice you can immediately, unmistakeably hear in your head. If I could, I'd be using them. As the "well they've been coached to sound like that" conveniently can be applied to most people in the entertainment industry. It doesn't apply at all to the volumes of people who just speak like that.

In my head, Daniel Radcliffe and, say, Trevor McDonald, sound the same, as in same non accent, but Trev sounds posher

You know some people pronounce things differently? For some Scottish people poor pour and paw all sound different.

Ok, I'm Scottish but this has me stumped.

Poor - p OO r

Pour - p OH r

Paw - p AW

Are you telling me it's common on England for OO, OH and AW to sound the same

Well your ears need a fixin' as Trevor McDonald has a clear Trinidadian lilt to his voice. He does not sound like Daniel Radcliffe.

Well maybe he has. He sounds like me. And I haven't. Neither have the people I know that sound the same and live all over the country.

Yes, mainly because class, as mentioned upthread. The spread of RP/SSE outside its core geographical base is class-based and has been for more than a century.

@Fluffypastelslippers

You know some people pronounce things differently? For some Scottish people poor pour and paw all sound different.

Ok, I'm Scottish but this has me stumped.

Poor - p OO r

Pour - p OH r

Paw - p AW

Are you telling me it's common on England for OO, OH and AW to sound the same

And also pore.

I've got bad news for you about for, fore, four and floor.

Not all across England, but in SSE yes those sounds are all the same.

Maybe the Southern England grip on film and TV isn't as strong as we thought!

*^Where does a RP accent come from.
No specific area.^

Again, that is at best heavily disputed.

Described in 1917 by a linguist as ‘everyday speech in the families of Southern English persons whose men-folk [had] been educated at the great public boarding-schools.’

Described more recently by the Concise Oxford as ‘the standard accent of English as spoken in the South of England.’*

That's really informative. I'd dismiss the 1917 thing pretty much straight away, as things evolve, especially language, and imagine very few of us sound like we would have done over 100yrs ago. But the more recent Oxford narrative, is really interesting. When was that stated do you know? South of England is very broad too, and contains many regional accents. It's weird that it's stated as the standard, for the lower (third?) of the country, when there will be as many regional accents as in the middle third, for example, but the middle third doesn't have it's own "generalised standard" like RP? Or does it?

@Bobsyer yah is nothing to do with being posh, it’s just people’s accents.

@Fluffypastelslippers yes, I have a non-rhotic accent so I think I would pronounce them all like you pronounce paw. I’ve never heard anyone pronounce poor with an oo sound or pour with an oh sound.

ah*, not yah… yah is a bit posh.

@TwinsandTrifle

Daniel Radcliffe has also been voice coached to within an inch of his life.

Well maybe he has. He sounds like me. And I haven't. Neither have the people I know that sound the same and live all over the country.

He went to one of the poshest schools in the country

I didn't. Nor the people I know.

and is an ACTOR

Well yes, I have to pick recognisable people with the voices I'm referring too, (big actors/celebs/public figures) because asking you what "my friend Lauren" sounds like doesn't really work.

I can't think of anyone who's going to be known nationwide (so pretty much someone seen by all on TV/film/music industry) who's got a voice you can immediately, unmistakeably hear in your head. If I could, I'd be using them. As the "well they've been coached to sound like that" conveniently can be applied to most people in the entertainment industry. It doesn't apply at all to the volumes of people who just speak like that.

In my head, Daniel Radcliffe and, say, Trevor McDonald, sound the same, as in same non accent, but Trev sounds posher

No idea why you're taking umbrage at my explaining to you why YOUR EXAMPLE of DR doesn't work. It's YOUR EXAMPLE. And those of us in this line of work can hear straightaway what people have done to modulate and modify their accents. Also not sure why you are now juxtaposing yourself with DR. I'm not interested in how you speak compared to him.

Genuinely. I don't need to be interested in how you speak. I think many of us know that you probably don't speak how you think you do, in the same way that we know you know very little about accent, dialect, class or language.

Word to the wise- look at my pp. I know nothing about phonics or reading schemes. So I don't make ridiculous proclamations showing everyone else I know nothing.

Try it. It might be less embarrassing for you.

That's really informative. I'd dismiss the 1917 thing pretty much straight away, as things evolve, especially language, and imagine very few of us sound like we would have done over 100yrs ago.

Dismissing it straight away is pretty silly; it gives us a very strong view of where an accent came from and how it developed, and in particular what its geographical base is - particularly when you look at the consistency over the intervening years of class being the dominant non-geographical factor in the development of the accent.

Those aren't the only two sources; I mentioned both to show the remarkable consistency over at least a century of where RP is from, and what's it's 'for' in the eyes of many.

South of England is very broad too, and contains many regional accents. It's weird that it's stated as the standard, for the lower (third?) of the country, when there will be as many regional accents as in the middle third, for example, but the middle third doesn't have it's own "generalised standard" like RP? Or does it?

There is no generalised 'standard' for other geographies and you're right that this is because of the traditional cultural (class-based) dominance of RP/SSE. In some estimates over the years RP speakers in England are estimated between 3-10%.

South of England is very broad but I don't believe it's intended to be either geographically inclusive or restrictive; it's an attempt to describe an accent in a way that is less loaded than RP.

And there are variations as I said upthread - the eastern Home Counties have a more Estuary tone, the western HCs are quite different. And then there are, as you say, many other dialects within the broad southern English geography. Other people have suggested other names for it, such as 'General English' or 'General British'; none is particularly ideal.

IPA seems to use 'Standard Southern British' and notes
Standard Southern British (where 'Standard' should not be taken as implying a value judgment of 'correctness') is the modern equivalent of what has been called 'Received Pronunciation' ('RP'). It is an accent of the south east of England which operates as a prestige norm there and (to varying degrees) in other parts of the British Isles and beyond.

But I think you're now getting hung up on the name of the accent, rather than the fact that you have one, and that it is no more or less 'proper' than anyone else's.

I think where I get stuck is, Glaswegian, Edinburgh, etc all Scottish accents, from a large geographical area. You can't have a regional accent attributed to a place in Scotland without it also being a Scottish accent.

Where as RP covers the south of England, but there are many regional accents that are not RP.

Northern? Is Northern the equivalent? But then all Northern place attributed accents are Northern. But then a strong Dorset accent isn't RP, yet they both are Southern England.

Does that make sense? I'm not being obtuse, despite PP trying to project that, genuinely interested.

I'm not "hung up" on thinking that I sound more "proper"

I don't sound posh. Or think I'm "proper." Or anything really. I sound exactly as the earlier PP Daniel Radcliffe quote. That's what I mean when I say I sound like him. "Boring, middle of the road English."

@TwinsandTrifle

I think where I get stuck is, Glaswegian, Edinburgh, etc all Scottish accents, from a large geographical area. You can't have a regional accent attributed to a place in Scotland without it also being a Scottish accent.

Where as RP covers the south of England, but there are many regional accents that are not RP.

Northern? Is Northern the equivalent? But then all Northern place attributed accents are Northern. But then a strong Dorset accent isn't RP, yet they both are Southern England.

Does that make sense? I'm not being obtuse, despite PP trying to project that, genuinely interested.

Why are you looking for equivalents? And why are you so hung up on the 'Southern' bit of SSE/SSB when it's been explained that it's not either an exclusive or inclusive geographical signifier, it's an imperfect term to describe the accent?

RP/SSE/SSB has a particular cultural history that other accents don't have so if you're looking for a direct equivalent that will allow you to think of it as an accent, you will fail.

No other accent has had the same interactions with ideas of class. Very few people will have adopted a Scouse accent to be able to get ahead in the Civil Service, or to avoid mockery at university, or to be able to talk on the BBC, for example.

If you think that cultural, social, political and educational dominance and exclusivity for the ruling classes over the last century and a half or so makes an accent 'better' or 'more proper' then knock yourself out. It's not an accent! It's how these sounds were meant to be said in the first place, not the result of centuries of complex development and change!

I get that that's a very comforting and comfortable thought, and it's how a lot of people from a position of relative privilege have thought for generations. But you'd be objectively wrong.

@JassyRadlett I'm finding your posts really, really informative thank you for taking the time and effort.

So. If you are Southern England. And don't have a regional dialect that would put you as recognisably from a particular region. Are you default RP?

@TwinsandTrifle

I'm not "hung up" on thinking that I sound more "proper"

I don't sound posh. Or think I'm "proper." Or anything really. I sound exactly as the earlier PP Daniel Radcliffe quote. That's what I mean when I say I sound like him. "Boring, middle of the road English."

It's literally only three hours since you said:

That's sort of what I mean. She just pronounces her words properly.

That accent is no more or less proper than anyone else's, taking an objective view that takes no view of class superiority.

I mean, I was talking about a royal. Who yes, I do think pronounces: properly, poshly (is that even a word)

And everyone ran off on the tangent of "ohhhh Kate Middleton, it's all about class for you"

Which is wrong. Hence I replaced with Daniel Radcliffe, and even that was jumped on for "ohhhhh posh school"

I'm trying to think of someone recognisable who can't just be poo-pooed as posh. Posh has got nothing to do with it. It's just been misleading in those two examples.

@TwinsandTrifle

It was your claim not to have an accent at all that didn't make sense. England is a geographical location you know. I see you've now admitted you have an English accent like Daniel Radcliffe.

I described myself as having an Irish accent upthread. Again there are lots of varieties of Irish accent, as there are many varieties of English or British accent, and I have one.

You can be more or less specific if you want, but you do have an English accent

Holly Willoughby? I can't do her voice 100% in my head from memory...but I think she's got the kind of voice I'm referring too.

But it is largely about class, if you think that RP (in all its wonderful forms) is 'properly' and other dialects are less proper. RP is inextricably tied up with the British class system, and suggesting that the historically dominant UC/UMC accent (the only acceptable accent on the BBC for years, called 'Oxford English' for a bit because that's what Oxford students and dons sounded like') is 'proper' when others are not is based on ideas of one class being superior or better in the way they speak.

I think you're on a losing wicket trying to find examples of people who speak that way who aren't 'posh' as if it will somehow suggest that they are accentless. Everyone has an accept. RP/SSE/SSB is culturally dominant, though less so than in the past, and is unavoidably tied up with class.

That's not to say that every RP/SSE/SSB speaker is posh. No one has suggested that. That's my accent now, and I'm a bloody immigrant. It's my husband's, and he had quite a different accent growing up. Because of its historical dominance and class overtones, many people have adopted it, either consciously or unconsciously.

It was your claim not to have an accent at all that didn't make sense. England is a geographical location you know. I see you've now admitted you have an English accent like Daniel Radcliffe.

English is countrywide. Mancunians have an English accent. It was your own quote that said "boring middle of the road" re DR. That's not a place.

What's your accent. Mancunian.

What's your accent. Middle of the road.

I can't get past how these are supposed to be seen the same. One's unmistakably from Manchester. The other, you just don't know.