Talk : Antenatal support thread for women who have chosen to terminate V

[treedelivery]

Welcome to the 5th thread.

An amazing day to begin a new journey together. The thread babies are arriving and we take this as a positive nod from the great karma controller - whoever and whatever that may be.

Good luck to our thread, to the souls who read, those who post, those who drop in to learn and hold hands.

Our cyber bench is a supportive place, we sit outside hospitals as strong but scared women go to ride their wave. We huddle in our cottage when the weather is bleak, stormy or biting cold.

When the sun shines on us we share stories of real life, gain strength and giggle together in times of warm weather.

Hear, hear Coffee. I think that there is an honesty here, a reality and an ability to put our hearts and minds into words that is addictive and reassuring and sane making. I have probably posted here hundreds and hundreds of times since April. It has been my saviour; both to express myself but also to feel listened to and to be offered shared experiences.
I hope your weekend is peaceful - we are here if you need us.
Bee xxxxx

Dearest all,
We move out of our house tomorrow, and as staying with family will have very limited internet access for the next 5 weeks (and who knows how long it will be until our broadband at new house will be sorted). So, much as I have come to rely on being able to check in and out of here I'm going to have to catch moments online in the library, etc whenever I can. I will dearly miss everyone's support, and wisdom...to go back to my buddhist influences (mishtabel, you are absolutely right on what the Dalai lama would say about my 'friend'), bereavement and trauma can make us more in touch with reality, and with that comes deeper empathy and sensitivity... The posts on here are so heartfelt, and so 'real', I truly feel that I have got where I am now through the support of your friendship, (and on the way learned so much about myself and the way to handle life after this...that there is no rule, that it is okay to just be getting by).
I will miss the opportunity to share here but hope to be able to pop in from time to time...Can't believe that tomorrow it will be 3 weeks since I was still pregnant.
rang the hospital again and cried a lot...and was promised a call back from a registrar this afternoon if they could get hold of one...so of course I heard nothing. I'm going to be ringing first thing Monday morning.
love to all. sorry for not replying personally to all, much as i wanted to. xx

Babylily, I've just checked in before going to bed and have just seen your message. Not sure you'll be able to read this before tomorrow, but I hope the move goes smoothly. Lots of luck with the hospital, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you. Also, I hope the next few weeks will bring you some peace - you do sound as if you are heading in the right direction. Look forward to hearing from you when things settle a bit. Take care, and lots of love xx

Babylily, good luck with the move and with the hospital Monday. Don't feel pressured to come back and post, but if it ever feels like it's getting too much, we are always here to listen - so find that library. Yes, I think that Buddhist philsophy on grief is a good way to look at things. Take care if yourself xxxx

Ok, here I am again with my computer, home alone for a few hours. We are very lucky to have some good friends, a couple who live in Paris, and who came to spend this week with us ? with me in particular, since my husband went back to work. They wanted to buy some stuff before heading back to Paris tomorrow and will be back in a couple of hours probably, but I just couldn?t go with them, not today. I woke up to what seemed like a better day, yet I was wrong, it?s all coming back now and I desperately need a bit of time alone with my thoughts.

Warning: rambling coming! Bee, you were saying you wrote here maybe hundreds of times since April, it looks like I am heading the same way. I?m not saying anything new, my feelings are the same as everyone else?s, you all went through the same, through much worse actually, yet as I was expecting this thread did become my lifeline.

Re: the meaning of grief... I honestly don?t know what I believe. Justa and Bee, your words are beautiful and full of meaning as always, and I?m so glad you seem to have found some peace. For me, it?s still early days, and everything is so mixed up in my mind. I am convinced there is a spiritual dimension to life, even if I?m not religious. There is kindness and hope ? and this thread proves it, the way people who are down and grieving can find a kind word for others, who are suffering just like them and who need a bit of compassion.

I agree it?s all too simplistic to believe it can all be explained in terms of ?this is what God meant? or ?it must have been God?s plan?. I have no doubt that my mind is too small to understand such a terrible situation, yet I can?t help but draw the line where innocent beings are concerned. I also hope I offend no one if I say that for me, to believe in God would mean to accept that innocents are punished or have to suffer, and I just can?t do this. Our babies were all innocent, they didn?t even have the chance of living outside our wombs, and this is the injustice which really gets to me, not our suffering as grown-ups.

On the other hand, I find it much easier to accept that this was a stupid accident Mother Nature played on us ? be it one which can be explained scientifically or not. In this case, the question is not so much ?why us?, but ?why not us?? In this case, it doesn?t matter if we?re good or bad people.

I really don?t know if I?m making much sense, and if I don?t please just disregard my post, don?t feel like you have to answer. As I said, it?s all too raw for me to be able to be coherent or reasonable. I certainly don?t mean this as an argument against faith, or God, these are just thoughts going through my mind at this time, and I definitely don?t want to offend anyone. I?m still so vulnerable, and have no certitude that I am right. My dad believes that in time I will understand that I am wrong now, that I will look at things differently, in a more humble way. I guess I do have faith, but it is rather faith in human resilience, and kindness.

Going back to more ?real? things, I start to be afraid that this might be for us just the beginning of a difficult journey. It all begins with one such ?accident? and very often it seems to continue the same way. Nothing I can do for the next few months, I know, yet this is definitely a worrying thought. When I think about a future pregnancy, I am stupidly almost convinced that I will miscarry anyway, before anything else bad happens. I have no idea how to explain this, I think I?m getting a bit paranoid. Maybe I also believe subconsciously that I?ll be punished ? but again, this doesn?t tail in with my ?theory? that it was all an accident and it doesn?t matter if we?re good people or not.

I think I?d better stop here, before going round and round in circles again. It?s so good to let it all out though, and I hope in the not so distant future my posts will begin to make more sense, as I?ll have had more time to come to terms with my grief.

Big hugs to everyone. xx

Hello all. Am massively behind but have just several hours ago deposited our week long visitors to the train station - hurray! I have my house back. I don't think I can do it again though. A family of four is too much (2 adults, 2 babies). dh and I (well mostly me) babysat one evening and I did for one afternoon (whilst my own kids were there as well!). Also gave them countless lifts here and there, fed them, picked up half drunk cups of coffee and emptied constant bins bags fully of dirty nappies..... we got a thank you obviously but I thought I little something, bottle of wine perhaps, not so much the wine, we have plenty but the gesture would have been appreciated... pah! family.... oh well they don't often visit, only twice a year usually...

I've been thinking of you all but really unable to get to the computer. Bezzy big hugs to you and coffee you seem so very mixed up, it all makes sense though the contradictory thoughts and writing it all down helps with the healing process.

Well as I said my bad anniverary is next week but no time for reflection as dh is to go into hosital for an operation on his hand. probably just one night so will be picking him up from hospital on the exact date I left the hosptial one year ago babyless.... I guess it will help though looking after dh, will be too busy to dwell. My place of relfection when I catch a moment seems to be puss's grave where I planted some bulbs and now little seedlings are coming through. Its sort of a momento for the baby too as I lost him and the cat in the same year. The cat of course had a long and happy life whereas the baby had none at all but even so I find the flowers popping through comforting and a focal point for my grief.

Sorry this post is very me, I've only read the post prior to this one. I've spent all week helping other people and needed to be selfish for once.

Will chat properly once I've caught up.

Love to you all. xxxx

Dear Coffee

For myself, I see that we live in a flawed world, that is obvious in the news we see daily. And like Babylily, there are many times I fear for my little DS, particularly as he is my only little one just now. But as well as the bad, there is the good - and the thing we DO have control over, the thing we CAN choose, to a great extent, is how we behave, treat one another, make the decisions which face us. For me, I think God can be in this part of life, holding our hands through the times of sorrow, crying with us in the time of tears, hugging us in times of happiness and in sorrow (all metaphorically, mind you - I don't belive in a grey-bearded god, just one who is here in spirit with us). I feel God helps me find strength in adversity, allows small seeds of hope or love to grow when the ground seems frozen and hard. When we had our diagnosis, my sister (also Christian, probably more so than me) really struggled. But for myself, it seemed better that it should happen statistically to anyone, including us. Because if it were only to happen to people who were 'bad', then what of the life of that little soul? Surely better that we had the chance to consider, and in love consider the best interests of that little soul and know our decisions were made not just for our own benefit. And I see that on here all the time - the heartache of making a decision no-one wants to make, made in love. So it is not a punishment, just a journey that no-one would wish to make but one out of which, given the right support, we can come with hearts that are grown larger and our understanding of others deeper. And I think that is why I am still on this thread, because I want to help others to find that peace as well as know that what they feel at this time is normal and all part of grieving.

I hope that makes sense - RL intervened in the writing of this post, so I expect many others have also answered by now... xx

Last time before the router gets packed away...
Got my appointment to see consultant through this morning. And it is for 29th April, a month after we've moved to scotland and 11 weeks after losing baby. I've already written and left desperate messages on answerphones today, begging to get another appointment. My consultant promised me he would see me before we moved. It just feels like we will leave without answers. I left a begging message on his secretaries answerphone to say how much I desperately needed someone to phone me on Monday, that it was destroying me not knowing whether my child was a boy or a girl...
Have also got the number for patient liaison at the hospital to ring on monday as i hear they can usually help facilitate things.
Why do they have to make everything so hard when we are already so broken down by this.
have spent a very tearful day.
take care everyone x

Thank you NumptyMum, you say you want to help others with their grief and you are doing just that xx

Eulalia, your week with your visitors sounds like a bit of a nightmare, hopefully you'll have a relaxed Sunday? I hope your husband's operation goes well next week and your bad anniversary will bring you some peace, and not only sadness.

Babylily, what your hospital are doing is so disgusting, it sounds like you are caught in a web of red tape. Contacting PALS sounds like a good idea, lots of luck with that! I can completely understand you had a tearful day, 29 April is just not acceptable. So sorry you have to go through that.

I have re-read my earlier post and was surprised at just how mixed up I really sound. I think I'll just stop trying to explain everything and just let the thoughts run free through my mind, until I eventually find some peace (and hopefully some logic).

Lots of love to everyone xx

Hi everyone.

Babylily, I'm not surprised you're angry and upset. It took ages for me to see the consultant after my first baby was lost but mainly that was because the postmortem took ages (we hadnt had CVS). In the end by the time we saw the consultant it felt like a total anticlimax. But if the results are sitting there, why on earth should it take another 2 months? You definitely need to complain.

Eulalia, hi, and grr to guests who don't even bring wine! Most people bring something, surely, when they come to stay, however tokenistic. Good luck with the upcoming anniversary and DH's op.

Coffee, I think you DID make sense - the problem is there is no rational reasoning behind all of this so when we think too hard we end up in circles. I have tended to end up concluding that this has happened to me because otherwise I have had an easy and blessed life. And I know I havent caused this - I followed all the rules in all pregnancies, and it still happened. I am unfairly judgemental of those who chain-smoke and binge-drink throughout and STILL come out with healthy babies. It feels unfair. But then lots about life is unfair...

The months after the loss are hard. Trying again is hard. You swing between optimism (they tell you what happened is random - every chance of a healthy baby second time around) - and terror. Dealing with pregnant bbellies is hard. But one thing I have learnt is that we get through it, however imperfectly. I have driven myself mad, with jealousy, upset, etc. And people here have understood and saved me. As we will with you aand as you will with us.

Glad you had friends here this week. You need to wrap yourself up, comfort yourself, do whatever it takes to get through this even while you find ways to remember Silvia. The bangle is such a good idea. I wish I had thought of it sooner. My DH bought an ornament a few months ago with two girls on it to commemmorate our two lost girls. Obviously nobody else knows the significance but it is sitting on the mantelpiece and it feels right.

Hope everyone is okay this weekend; thinking of you.

Good morning everyone.

Allways and Eulalia, sending you a good thought and a hug, this will be a difficult week for you. And of course, lots of luck to Babylily, I hope you'll get an appointment soon xx

I realised Moneli hasn't posted in a while, I hope you are ok Moneli. And of course Helenlouisey, when are you seeing your consultant? Sorry if I forgot any of the newbies.

Cantdo, I was talking to my DH yesterday about having an easy life until our loss of Silvia, I am just a bit anxious now that this is the first of a series of unfortunate events. At the same time, I'm doing my best to keep positive (as positive as I can be under the circumstances), and tell myself there are too many things I can't control to feel anxious. What will be will be.

I also know what you mean about seeing people who chain smoke and binge drink throughout their pregnancy. On the day after my termination, as we were coming out of the hospital, I saw a heavily pregnant lady walking out of the hospital as well and smoking. I was feeling so numb that day, and yet I suddenly felt so angry, so powerless...

Today is my first day back at work. I'm working from home most of the time though, so I can take it easy for a while. On the other hand, the house is just so empty, and I remember that only a couple of weeks ago things were so different.

Anyway, I had only logged in to say hi to everybody and I find myself rambling on... again. Also, I realised I've been hogging this thread these last few days, and this is not what I wanted.

Hope everyone's week goes smoothly. Take care xx

Also, forgot to say: Gina and Bezzy, sending you a big hug as well, I hope you're ok xx

Really, really should be sleeping, so must be brief.
Coffee, just had to say, never apologise for rambling - i feel it's often very necessary. And please don't feel bad for 'hogging' the thread - as has been said before, we have all hogged the thread at times. That's the times we have needed support the most. If it helps to write of your feelings, please do so without feeling you have to restrain yourself. We're listening, even though we might not all get a chance to respond as we would wish xx

Eulalia, just quickly, 'usually ONLY twice a year'? You, my love, are a saint xx

Take care all xxx

Btw, Bee and all, Bella is going very well. No rational fears to complain of, only irrational ones, and that is something I think I'll have to live with (like most parents I suppose) xxx

Hi All. Just dropping by to check in and see how everyone is.

I am astounded at how fast this thread has moved in recent weeks but at the same time I am dismayed that so many women have had to come join us. Don't get me wrong, it's a great place to find. It just sucks that there is a need for it to exist in the first place.

To all the ladies who have joined in the last month or so - Babylily, Coffee, HelenLouisey, Gina, Allways and Moneli AND anyone else my sieve-like memory has unforgivably overlooked AND anyone who is out there lurking and wondering about whether to post or not - a massive hello. This thread has seen me through some bad old times, some extremely strange times and always has the ability to spit me out the other side of the grief struggle, a little bit lighter of heart. I guess it's just the knowing that someone else who 100% understands is interested in you, is rooting for you and will take time for you.

I came here first when Bee was facing her scenario for a second time. Similar had happened to me, but up until then I had never come across anyone in the same situation. And it really helped to talk. I'm something of a veteran in the field of pregnancy loss. Believe me, I wish I wasn't. But just in case I can ever be of help to anyone, I have had (deep breath) one ectopic, two spontaneous miscarriages of unknown cause, two terminations for T21, one MMC for T21 and one MMC for Turners Syndrome. Over a period of 5-6 years I've built my knowledge and have some firm views! DH is a medic and despairs of me and my soapboxes! Life has been kinder to me of late, so my story is not all doom and gloom.

Bezzy, I am so, so sorry and understand that you are driven by a need for answers. I had full testing, but as others have said, it wasn't particularly enlightening. Actually, all it told me was that I had my full complement of chromosomes, as did DH and it confirmed that I was a girl and he was indeed a boy. Then the geneticist (sp?) capped it all off by saying 'random bad luck' (grrrr), 'go book yourself a holiday' (bigger grrrr). It's the random bad luck comment that gets me every time. This is not a lost bus ticket or your team failing to win promotion - or whatever. The random bad luck line seems flippantly flippant and I always hated it. Still do. Besides, all these things happen for a reason. It may not be a sinister reason, may never repeat again. However, just because the medics aren't able to explain it away, doesn't mean we should have to put up with such a silly throwaway phrase. Having said that, as I write I realize that some many may find this phrase a comfort. If so, please ignore the above. And hugs to Bezz.

And a special mention to Justa for your lovely words last week. Thank you for understanding and wishing you well on your own path.

It's finally my turn to bake, ladies. I've said before that I am no domestic goddess but it is St David's Day here, so I am honour bound to get out my bakestone and make a batch of Welshcakes. Warm welshcakes on a clear spring-like day - good for the soul. Wish you were here to join me. Gwyl Dewi Hapus and love to all. x

I'm going to go back and read the posts I've missed over the past few days.

I'm feeling more and more emotional as the days pass and we get closer to Wednesday and Rose?s termination. Had a bitter sweet weekend with my husband. We talked about the love and joy this pregnancy has given us and the pain and anger that it should come to an end.

I also answered the phone at my parents house to an uncle, who expressed his sorrow at our loss and wished us well for the funeral on Wednesday. Obviously, the news my Dad shared with his Mum has gotten lost in translation to other members of his family. I had to explain that we hadn?t loss Rose yet, but she was 'ill' and her outlook wasn't good. We don't want extended family knowing we terminated the pregnancy and wanted to tell them she was born sleeping. I'm now cross at all the confusion there must be, the explanations given, talking about our daughter wrongly, people thinking she has already gone. I don't even feel comfortable with some family members saying her name, it?s as though she is too good for them to speak of her. I?m having particular issues with my MIL and her lack of understanding, she assumed we would be going to a family party this coming Friday????

Oh Allways how terrible to add to your troubles. Might be best to just not answer the phone for awhile if feasible? Looks like our dates are very near, this Friday last year was the termination of my baby. Others have written on previous threads about possible ways to handle it if that may be of help. I wish I could say something of use, except that we are all thinking of you.

As for me, well I actually feel really OK. Suddenly it does feel like a long time ago maybe the beautiful weather here is helping, just moments ago I have actually been sitting in my garden sunning myself

shangrila - lovely to hear from you and to know you are being very traditional with your Welsh cakes. yummy.

Good to hear from you Mistabel.

Love to coffee, bee, bezzy, numpty, cant & justa and others I may have missed. xxxxx

Allways, no wonder you're feeling very emotional,my heart goes out to you. We'll be thinking of you here.

Unfortunately I could see that for most of us on this thread some family members can be a pain. I think we just need to accept that most people just don't get it. I am saying "we" because I have some issues with my mum as well, who gave me no support whatsoever. After my termination DH texted her to say very briefly that I was physically well, and then... nothing from her for 2 weeks. Not a phone call, not a text, nothing. I called her yesterday and all she said was that "I must't be upset" and that our luck will change. I'm crying more because my baby wasn't lucky, not because we weren't.

This attitude reminds me of your MIL, though I can't help but be shocked as well that she expects you to go to a party on Friday! It's so frustrating when people don't acknowledge your pain, especially if they are your family. I think in older times the attitude when faced with a situation like ours was completely different. Yesterday I was on the verge of asking my mum if she would only care for her granddaughter had she been born healthy and at term, but I decided it was not worth it.

You and your husband love Rose, she will always be your precious little girl, she has already brought you so much happiness, and this is the most important thing now. This is what I try to remind myself when I think about Silvia as well, that it doesn't matter what others say or don't say, we will always love her and will not forget her.

Eulalia, so good to hear you're ok, I hope the rest of the week will be the same for you.

Hello to Mishtabel and Shangrila xx

Allways; as Coffee says, you must be feeling very emotional as you approach Wednesday and I can completely understand what you say re not even wanting others to use Rose's name. There is something about this time that demands privacy, where you need to feel that it is just you, your DH, Rose; and to have others not comprehending that to the extent of your MIL must rightly make you angry. I imagine that the family party must be very important to your MIL, so much so that she doesn't 'see' (ie even think about) what you will be going through on Weds. But to be blinkered to that extent... sometimes I think it is worth pointing out the obvious (ie what you will actually be DOING on Weds) but then that would probably make it worse in your own mind.

I think what I would do is write it all down, how you feel because of this, and then decide whether or not to send the letter a bit later when you come back to it. This is what I did when I got riled by something at my work (nothing to do with colleagues/boss, who were all lovely). In the end I didn't send what I'd written, but it helped me to put it all down. And it was there if ever these things came up again, ready.

And Coffee, I'm so sorry to hear that your mum hasn't understood either. I think sometimes because the words 'termination' or 'ending a pregnancy' is used, the assumption is that because we make this choice we are fine with it. Sometimes people do need to know that it is NOT the case, that it is not a simple question of solving a problem, but that the baby IS real, WAS going to be part of their family, and that although a decision is made it is the best of two bad options, not one you are happy with. And that as you say, the sorrow is for your baby; that you are grieving. I am so lucky, I got good support and understanding from my family and in-laws - even to the extent that my MIL made clothes for Iola (which REALLY made me cry). I only wish it were the case with everyone.

Feel like I've gone on a bit, and must get tea for me and DH. Love to everyone else - good to hear from you Shangrila; and Eulalia hope you enjoyed the lovely sun and warmth we had in Scotland today . Shame your 'guests' aren't there to enjoy it with you . xxx

I was just remembering Mishtabel saying that after the loss of her daughter, she was given a booklet to share with family members, and it made me wonder whether we have something similar in the UK now.

Seems that ARC do a 'Help for Grandparents' booklet (small charge, presume as charity they can't afford to do it for free) which might either help grandparents (ie our parents/in-laws) who are grieving OR point out that actually they might want to grieve/at least think about it that way... perhaps worth looking into, for anyone struggling with parental attitudes?

quickly got on to in-laws pc..

consultant called me today.
baby was a boy, we've named him isaac.
He suggested it could be a genetic issue with one of us where an extra chromosome is added to males we conceive...as we have now had 2 boys with trisomies and 2 miscarriages.
He is going to see us on april 1st, day before we move.

allways, my heart goes out to you for wednesday. will be thinking of you.

Babylily - so glad you have been able to name your little boy, Isaac is a lovely name.

I'm glad also that your persistence with the consultant paid off and you got the beginnings of possible answers (sad and hard though those are) and an earlier date to meet.

I hope your in-laws are being kind to you... xx

Babylily, so glad you got to find out and to name your little boy. Isaac is a lovely name. Interesting that the consultant has that theory. My MIL, she of many theories, had the theory that I 'couldn't carry boys'. This despite her being told over and over that we lost 2 girls not 2 boys... but the consultant's theory sounds possible in your case. Anyway now at least you can remember your son by his name.

Hi Allways, Wednesday must be coming so close. I hope you are managing to take some comfort from having Rose with you that little bit longer. I can't believe your MIL thinks you would want to go to a family party - or rather I can, mine would probably think likewise. I agree with Eulalia about hiding out for a few days to get through this just you and DH, if other people are going to misunderstand. Have the hospital talked you through what to expect on Weds? If not I'm happy to share what happened to me with my 20 week baby; I know it's earlier but there will be similarities.

Coffee, I think that reaction from your mum is similar to what I've had. My family havent been tactless but their reaction has come out almost exclusively through a very negative anxious response to my current pregnancy rather than acknowledging the pain of loss of the last two. It's as though my babies didn't exist. But they do - in my memory - and in a way, if they don't for other people, I've realized this doesn't matter too much. Silvia will always be remembered in your hearts and that's what matters. And we just need to seek support here...

Hi Eulalia and Mishtabel and Numpty. The booklets that ARC produce might be a good idea. Suspect my lot wouldn't read them, though.

Hi Shangrila, your litany of losses is so depressingly comprehensive. You must feel blessed now with your DS.

And hi to Bee, Bezzy, Gina, Moneli, Mrs BG and everyone else who's been quiet.

Allways, what to say.... I am not good at this, just that I am thinking of you and hope your last day with Rose is peaceful and meaningful in some way. I wish I had done something more with my baby in the last few days. I did take a photo of myself but I have ds2 sitting on my lap, he was a kind of protector for me. Maybe it was because for me (I know its different for others) I had to give up my baby for my existing children. Still hurts though of course. Anyway hope it all goes smoothly tomorrow and we'll all be here virtually holding your hand.

Babylily, what a lovely name, thanks for sharing with us.

Numpty - I forget how near you are to me, yes its lovely again today.

Must dash, love to all. xxx

Babylily, I will be thinking of Isaac, a beautiful name for your much loved son.

I'm thinking of all the much loved babies and parents on this board. May the sun shine down on us all.