In not wanting The Pope to visit uk at the taxpayers expense?

[Alouiseg]

Apparently The visit wil cost 12m pounds. That's 12 million pounds to be pinched from other budgets. For a man who has been responsible for covering up crimes against children.

My MP will receive an email today and I will make my abhorrence very clear.

Jenny 60; we're full circle now.

You think that catholics should leave the church because of the catholic child abusers but it was the abusers who committed the crimes not the catholic faith.

Some parents are child abusers but I hope you're not about to suggest that we cease to be parents as a consequence of the actions of (I hope) a few.

Separate the people and their faith.
They just happened to be Catholics.

Otherwise you're back to the inference that to be catholic is to be a child abuser and we're all sure that we're not saying that aren't we!

Stubborn, The link below refers to the investigations set up in Ireland.

news.scotsman.com/abuseinthecatholicchurch/Leaders-named-for-Vatican-inquiry.63 31276.jp

There are similar in all other countries involved.

Easewriter - you could stop giving any money to the Church at all. Then you could make it very clear via your priest any your bishop that you will not welcome the pope to this country until he has made available to the police all the evidence that has come to him cofidentially since he issued the "Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela" in 2001. That would be a good start.

This one links to the Pope's speach in Portugal.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7122812.ece

The Catholic church has a long road to go down but it's attitude to the abuse has changed and is being addressed. Catholic parishioners are not just sitting back and allowing this to continue.

Speech

How do you know that I give any money to the church?

It's not compulsory.

Our priest and Bishop are not impressed by the actions of the current Pope.

I won't be going to see him on his visit because I don't like his past.

Anymore?

Also what are you doing to demonstrate that you're not a child abuse colluder?

Why haven't you called for the members of any other organisations who have ever covered up child abuse in the past to get on here and demonstrate their outrage?

Do it!
Demonstrate that it's not Catholics you hate!

But seeker, if we all stop giving money to the church that will have an effect on all the good work they carry out....

or do you think the money goes towards the vaticans xmas party?

It does actually!

A weekly party!

You should see how much wine we get through each week.
Mouthfuls of the stuff!

"but I want to understand how Catholics can be outraged by the recent cover up, and yet remain within the church."

perhaps because they are able to understand that it is
people who committed and covered up the abuse, not the religion.

lol Easywriter..

why dont we take this to its final conclusion

Males will prey on children whenever they can

You hear stories of children being abused when they where evacuated during the war,The children sent to Australia and Canada by our govournment in the 40's- 70's,UN peacekeepers in Africa trading food for sex from minors,care home workers,teachers,fathers,men who befriend single women just to get at there children etc etc.
I have worked with men who given the chance would have sex with a minor,you know the ones the type that cheats on his wife,thinks of women as sex objects and has no respect for them.
I remember reading an article years ago which said that 1 in 10 men are pedophiles or potential pedos
where they got this from I do not know but there you go

Women can be child abusers too.

I think the logical conclusion is not to generalise.

"Why haven't you called for the members of any other organisations who have ever covered up child abuse in the past to get on here and demonstrate their outrage?

Do it!
Demonstrate that it's not Catholics you hate! '

Name me another organization that has behaved like the Catholic Church and watch me!.

However, I am able to distinguish between Catholics, the Catholic Faith and the Catholic Church Hierarchy. Catholics - I like some, I don't like others. Just like Jews, Hindus or Status Quo fans. The Catholic Faith I have my own opinions on which I don;t think this is an appropriate place to talk about. The Catholic Church Hierarchy have behaved appallingly in this matter, and continue so to do. I don't like the word "hate' but I think I might use it in referecne to my feelings about Bishop Brady, for example, or Cardinal Hegarty or, indeed the current Pope. But I do not hate Catholics. No one one here hates Catholics. No one has said anything to make Catholics believe that they are hated.

No one is saying only Catholics commit child abuse, but that's not what I was asking. I can't 'leave' parenthood anymore than I can leave womanhood. But I can choose to leave pretty much any institution I voluntarily (as an adult) am involved with and/or support. I do not have a bodily connection with, say, my trade union or my gym, but I would leave both if they affronted my sense of justice on the same levels as the RC church does.

I was just trying to understand what it would take for other Catholics (I was one too) to leave if not this. It's not only the doing of the crime that I find so disturbing about this episode, it's the collusion, covering up and, most of all, the church's insistence that it is, in some matters, beyond temporal law. I condemn any organisation and would not belong to any organisation which insisted on its right to follow Canon law, even if it meant protecting child abusers. Would you accept this from any other organisation you chose to belong to?

Oh dear!
Things have been said on here that offend Catholics (hence us getting up in arms about it).
I appreciate that you're probably trying to convey that nobody meant to say anything that would upset Catholics,

but... calling a spade a spade, I don't think you believe that anymore than I do!

Watch me too seeker! This OP was about the Pope's visit and this is why we are talking about the current state of the church. Not because we hate Catholics. I'd hate most of my family if that were the case. But I will condemn ANY organisation or individual who attempts to cover up this kind of crime, and who continues to believe that women are second class citizens.

Soupdragon said it at 14:03 (I think)!

That's why we're not leaving

So now telling us that we don't really believe what we say and that you know better than we do what we believe and really mean is the best you can do? I rest my case: no room here for any kind of logical argument.

Seeker. I ask again what are you doing about it!?

Don't agree with paying for the papal visit by state or contribution by the church in UK. However, we'll continue to contribute to our church which as £200k building fund debt, needs a new boiler and sends a monthly donation to Sri Lanka to a church that we are 'linked with'. Our summer fete we put back 20% of any profits made to local groups too.

I didn't really understand your last comment Jenny but what I was trying to get at was that it was people who committed these crimes and not the religion.

If you were suggesting that why isn't the pope (the man) being ousted, well, that I wouldn't have an answer for and I suspect it would be the lawyers arguing the toss there.

But once this Pope goes there will be another Pope and he (presumably) will be free of any such association and so Catholicism will rumble along with it's Pope.

"I appreciate that you're probably trying to convey that nobody meant to say anything that would upset Catholics,

but... calling a spade a spade, I don't think you believe that anymore than I do! "

I don't think I was "trying to convery" anything/ I was saying quite clearly that this is not about individual Catholics - it's about the Church hierarchy. If you would like to show me where I have said anything that might upset an individual Catholic lay person, then i will happily apologize. Happy to upset priests and bishops - but the ordinary Catholic in the pew, no. Unless, of course, they are spologists for paedophiles. Which most aren't. I REALLY don't mind upsetting people who think - and say "Oh, that was all a very long time ago, things were different then - it could never happen again. And don't worry, the Church has cleared up all the little misunderstandings. Can't see why the police should be involved - let the Church sort it out" As has been said to me.

Oh, and what am I doing about it, Easuwriter? Well, as I am not a Catholic, I can't do anything from within the organization. I can and do, challenge people who won't accept that there is still work to be done in the Church, or even think that nothing much bad happened the "a few bad apples" brigade. And I speak up whenever and wherever I can.

Same as me and all the Catholics I know then!

I find it interesting that in fifteen pages of discussion about religion, there has been no mention of God. Seeker, that might give you your answer.

I understand the bewilderment of seeker and jenny60, and their frustration. They naturally think that if this was a scandal in a gym, or a political party, or a golf club, or even a government, that members of the organisation should just leave, refuse to pay their fees, and protest. I would agree, but there's another element here that defies logic.

I don't want to be patronising here by saying "oh, you don't believe in God so you couldn't possibly understand"- but I think, to help give you your answer, faith is at the heart of why Catholics don't just turn their backs on the Church.

For most of us (yes, putting my hands up) our faith, whether it be Catholic or any other, gives us strength, comfort, hope and peace. Usually our experience of religion at grass roots level doesn't involve discussion of "ishoos", and you'll find the majority of Catholics have learned to follow their own consciences and adapt their faith and beliefs to modern society.

Of course we condemn evil in all its forms. Of course we are revolted and disgusted by institutional abuse. Many Catholics have a real crisis in reconciling their personal practice of faith with the abuses of the institutional church. However, we persist, because (in my own view) we believe that God loves us and will help us. It's very hard to reject a deeply-held belief like that.