In not wanting The Pope to visit uk at the taxpayers expense?

[Alouiseg]

Apparently The visit wil cost 12m pounds. That's 12 million pounds to be pinched from other budgets. For a man who has been responsible for covering up crimes against children.

My MP will receive an email today and I will make my abhorrence very clear.

Seeker; What do you think all catholics should do?...leave the church...stop giving money...pull our children out of catholic schools?...

None of that is going to happen.

I know 100's of catholics...not one has left the church or taken their children out of catholic schools.....not one.

But you should be doing more, easywriter - it's your club!

That's the weakest excuse I ever heard: how is 'the religion' separate from the people in it, especially the people at the highest level, especially a religion which is based on church teaching rather than bible as it stands? If 'the religion' isn't the people in it, what is it?

It's not a club seeker.

[Deep breath out...]
Is the issue that people don't want the Pope to visit at all because of his past or just that we (UK tax payers) don't want to pay for it?

Yes it is!

Yes, you're right Hesteria, of course it's about faith. There's no other way to explain it. But I'm afraid that the very same logic can apply in the secualr world too and it is just as unacceptable there. I, for one, cannot understand why anyone would associate themselves with football clubs like Celtic and Rangers, but they do, largely on the kinds of grounds you listed: belonging, tradition, maintaining that one can't blame 'the club' for the racism of individual supporters. I know what you mean Hesteria, but I'm afraid that for me it's not good enough. People should not find comfort or faith in such institutions. How any woman in particular could put her faith in an institution that told her she wasn't worthy of its top job is beyond me. What price faith?

I am not responsible for the actions of anybody except myself.
I am not distancing myself, please take me literally. I mean that if you want to go and but an ice cream and eat it right now, I cannot stop you! Do you agree?

I am responsible for what I believe in, I believe in Catholiscim but am not responsible for the actions of all the other folk who claim to believe in Catholicism.

Yes a religion is made up of people but the religion is not master of the actions of all the people who claim to also believe in that religion.

I'm not sure what you want of us.

It just strikes me that you don't agree with Catholicism and will only consider a catholic to not be colluding with the actions of the minority if we leave the church (because why wouldn't we? it's all gubbins anyway)

One more point for those who object to the cost of the visit. (Incidentally, I have no interest in this visit and would prefer if it didn't happen, but still...)

Parents are going to great lengths to get their children into Catholic schools in the UK- even pretending that they have converted to the religion. This would seem to be because the standard of education is better in Catholic schools than in State schools. Catholic schools are better-funded because of Catholic money, and that even fee-paying Catholic schools are subsidised by the Catholic Church.

What would it cost the UK government if every Catholic school closed tomorrow and the children had to be accommodated in State schools?

I know it's a separate issue, but it got me thinking.

seeker - "Why are you all not up in arms and incansescent with rage at the hierarchy of your own Church? Why are you not demanding answers, and refusing to pay any more of your hard earned money into the Church until it puts its house in order? Why are you still repared to show alliegance to the Pope, who, it has been proved, jknew about the abuse scandal and perpetuated the cover up? :

the Catholic church is not a democracy. you don't get to 'demand answers' or complain about things and have them changed. that's why there's no married Catholic priests, women priests, divorce, contraception etc. Lay Catholics don't elect cardinals or choose who gets to be the pope. The church issues the catechism, Catholics try to follow it to greater or lesser extents depending on their own commitment to the church.

It doesn't mean people aren't appalled, outraged and horrified by what has been going on for decades. But people aren't prepared to leave the Catholic church over it, since they believe that it is an institution capable of good as well as evil and many Catholics believe it is, literally, the one true faith.

I'm not saying I personally particularly agree with the hierarchical structure or the church's position on a lot of different things. But it doesn't really seem fair to act like its a democracy that could be changed if people complained enough about it, and be annoyed that more Catholics aren't out picketing in the streets...

easywriter -
obviously you welcome the pope to UK (and I don't mind him coming either)

but

• do think the pope's street parades are a good idea?
• do think tax payer shoudl be funding his visit?

these are the two issues that have me booing. If he came to the UK on his own ticket, said mass in Wembley Stadium then went on retreat with his bishops etc, I wouldn't turn a hair. Indeed I would hardly notice.

the jehovah's witnesses have a conference in Twickenham Stadium every year, but its a free country. I don't go and boo it. But if I had to pay for it, and they paraded up the high street... well...

Jenny60, you have totally misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about faith in an institution. I don't put my faith in institutions. I was talking about faith in God. That has nothing to do with "tradition" or "belonging" (which I never mentioned).

Essentially, the most important thing for many Catholics is their relationship with God. That's what I mean by faith. And participating in Mass, for example, makes them feel closer to God.

(I really will have to stop contributing here, as I'm a bit concerned about coming across as some crazy Jesus-freak. Most people who know me would never guess I'm a practising Catholic. But prayer and reflection are a really important part of my life.)

hesteria, I understand that you and others on this thread can't stop being catholic, but suppose the catholic church hierarchy were in one place and got blown up. You would still be a catholic yes? Being a catholic doesn't depend on those currently running the church does it. So surely you being a catholic doesn't require you to approve of everything the current leaders of the church say?

In which case you (and others who think the abuse and cover-up was a bad thing) could make a least a token protest to show you don't approve.

Just as an example so you know I don't mean leaving the church. If all those catholics unhappy with the way the church hierarchy has behaved wore an armband to church next week that would be a silent yet real message to the church and the world from the ordinary members.

What we are seeing too often is some outspoken catholics saying that

a) The cover-up and protection of the guilty didn't happen
b) It was ok for them to cover it up because they are the true church
c) To disagree with them covering it up is anti-catholic and abusive

If some say that and all the other members stay silent it looks as though the majority are ok with it.

No, I didn't misunderstand you Hesteria, though I could have phrased my views better. I understand that you put your faith in god and not the institution and that you feel the mass helps you in your relationship with god. As someone who left the church after a lot of thought along these lines, I have two points to make:

1. My relationship with god, I decided, was not more important than taking a stand about an institution that held a lot of views I fundamentally disagreed with. In fact, it was incompatible with it and could not be separated from it. That would be illogical.

1. If the church as an institution is not what draws people to catholicism and individual relationships with god are really what's important, why remain in the church? Why not have your own relationship?

The only answer has to be that you agree with most of what it stands for. If you do, ok, that's your choice. But you cannot have it both ways, i.e. that the church as an institution doesn't matter as much as your personal beliefs and, at the same time, that you want to remain in the church in any case.

"What we are seeing too often is some outspoken catholics saying that

a) The cover-up and protection of the guilty didn't happen
b) It was ok for them to cover it up because they are the true church
c) To disagree with them covering it up is anti-catholic and abusive

If some say that and all the other members stay silent it looks as though the majority are ok with it. "

onagar, that hasn't been my experience of the reaction of Catholics here (in Ireland). I can't recall anyone denying abuse took place, very few if any who think the cover up was OK, and I haven't heard anyone suggest that disagreeing with the cover up is anti-Catholic.

And certainly it isn't true that "all the other members stay silent" either. Criticism of the initial abuse and the subsequent cover up have been widespread among Catholics.

never mind that
what about hte UK government seemingly havign MISSED the fact that Italy united in 1870 ish and sending an ambassador to the Holy See

religiou is just shit though and tbh teh catholic church is SO in trub

jenny60, leaving the Catholic Church because you disagree with its views is eminently sensible and understandable. Indeed it would be bizarre to remain a member of a church whose views you disagreed with to any great extent.

But equally leaving the Catholic Church because some individuals within the organisation behaved in a manner totally at odds with Church teaching doesn't make any sense to me.

If the Church changed its position and taught that child sex abuse was not a sin and covering it up was not a sin, then certainly I'd be away, but I believe in the teachings of the Church, that's what makes me/keeps me as a member. Not the actions of fellow sinners within the Church.

Stubborn why don't you go down to Downing Street and do your booing to our Mr Cameron.

We invited him in the first place Don't suppose the pope's really that keen on coming here either but say he turned us down and said he wouldn't come. How would that look to the rest of the world. Wars have broken out over less!

noyoucant, All those things have even been said in recent threads on MN. This thread is just the latest. Even here you will note people calling it catholic bashing.

The catholic hierarchy helped the abuse to continue and did (still is as far as I know) hamper the police investigations. This man was in charge of that. He even sent a letter forbidding people to report the truth.

I wouldn't want him coming anyway because of the cost and that applies to all such visits for now, but the idea of this man coming here to tell us about morals I find offensive. But this is catholic bashing according to some.

Oh and for those saying we don't say anything about muslims we refused to let in Yusuf al-Qaradawi

We didn't want this homophobe here so we said no.

Jenny60, I can and do "have it both ways."

I'm very supportive of your decision to leave the church, and understand that that is what you feel is important. My way is different, and I don't need to be argued at for my personal beliefs. You have left the church. Why is it so important to you that the rest of us leave, too?

I imagine you consider yourself to be a very liberal and tolerant individual. I would ask you to extend the same liberalism and tolerance to those whose views differ from yours- even on the thorny subject of the practice of Catholicism.

I really don't want to spend the tax I pay on bigots parading - that is any bigot and man or woman that interfers with a police investigation. If that happens to be a perosn who talks in the name of religion then they will also bring that religion into distripute and the followers will have to think hard about whether they agress with what has happend or if they disagree with what has happend and then decide whether they want to continue to belong to that section of religion and what they want to do about that part of their selection - if they think they can change the section of religion and truely believe that they can I have nothing more to say to them.

if though they bleat on about how much it hurts I doubt anyone will want to listen

Hesteria: It's not important to me personally if Catholics leave the church or not. You have your beliefs and I have mine, but if you argue the toss here, I'll argue back. I am not Catholic bashing at all, just looking for some consistencey. I think I found some in the message from Noyoucant who is the first person to say here that she does agree with the teachings of the church.

Nyoucant: thanks, this is what I have been waiting for. No reason at all of course for you to leave the church if you're in accord with its teachings. And of course the church is explicitly opposed to child abuse.

A declaration is not in itself sufficent for me personally as I see real inconsistencies in what it says and what it does, but that's another issue.

"If the powers that be in Islam (I'm sorry, i don't know he proper words) had consistently covered up and colluded with widespread sexual abuse of children i would happily post similarly about them."

Seeker -- Here's something for you: "The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan" is a programme shown on PBS (public broadcasting service) in the US. It details the widespread and very old practice of families selling young boys, essentially into sexual slavery. They are trained to dance for the titillation of other men, and are sexually abused/ raped by their 'owners'.

How about a bit of incandescence?

Was this practice covered up by the powers that be? Was it an illegal activity which should have resulted in a prison sentence for the perpetrator, but which actually just resulted in the perpetrator being moved to a different region and the child's family told to keep it secret?

Of course, I am incandescent about all the ways we abuse and mistreat children. The added dimeension in the Catholic Church scandal is that this is an organization supposedly devoted to helping people and providing a moral compass and guidance but which colludes with and covers up abuse by people in positions of authority within it. Yes, many cultures traditionally treat children appallingly. That is not the point.