In not wanting The Pope to visit uk at the taxpayers expense?

[Alouiseg]

Apparently The visit wil cost 12m pounds. That's 12 million pounds to be pinched from other budgets. For a man who has been responsible for covering up crimes against children.

My MP will receive an email today and I will make my abhorrence very clear.

I think it was a step further than advocating celibacy to actually claim that condoms spread aids, though. i know we are desensitised to problems in the developing world in this country, but the implications of that little one-off are absolutely disasterous.

rest assured: if we spent best part of £100m to have an Ayatollah parade up and down whitehall in an imam-mobile then I'd turn out to boo him as well.

Islam hasn't had the same problem with child abuse (that I know of), the abuse that islam finds acceptable, covers up, doesn't like mentioned is woman abuse.

Seeker;

Alot of catholics are doing all the things you mention....some are ignoring it, some don't care, some have left the church as a result of the child abuse scandal....

There are millions of catholics, they're not all going to react in the same way

Well the ones who are ignoring it or who don't care are colluding with paedophiles. And I see very little of the outrage that there should be among the Catholic laiety. There is none I can see on this thread. There is self justification, false analogy, defensiveness and bizarre comparisons with Nelson Mandela and big pharmaceutical companies. But no outrage. Why not?

Seeker, are you so blinkered that you do not presume that child sexual abuse happens within the Muslim community also? Yes it does but is it widely published - No. The prevelance of child abuse within the catholic church is broadly in line with the general population. It is everywhere - The police force, the teaching profession, early years, family life, sports clubs etc etc. I don't see you Up in arms blah blah blah protesting about every other group that has had child abusers within their fold. Why should the Catholic followers be any different? The Catholic church ARE addressing the abuse of the past and bringing it out in to the open. Would it surprise you to note that there are probably 1.99 billion catholics in the world that have never experienced any abuse from a catholic priest or know of anyone who has suffered abuse from a catholic priest. Get some perspective please.

Oh hesteria, her we go again saying any criticism of the church heads is an attack on all Catholics, akin to the worst of anti-semitism.

As a US Christian friend once told me, "I am a supporter of Jesus, not his fan club".

Many Catholics have issues with Rome. As do I. I have nothing against catholic people, but many just criticisms of this evil church and it's long history of oppression, violence, child rape and aids-misinformation.

Am sick of apologists accusing us all of some kind of hate-crime.

There is, of course, child abuse in all areas of life.

However, as far as I know, the Catholic Churce is the only institution where it has been proved that abuse has been colluded with and covered up by those in charge right to the very top. An institution whose very raison d'etre is to care for people and to provide moral compas and guidance.

And where, even now, the hierarchy is STILL having to be forced to reveal evidence to the police, and which STILL seeks to blame the victims for their own suffering

I object to the money being spent on this visit in the current climate.

Are you joking Seeker? What about the state run UK care homes in the 50's, 60's, 70's. Of course there was abuse and it was covered up and proved so. Those involved were right at the very top all the way down. Institutionalised child abuse went on in the Church of England run care facilities and yes it was covered up. There was a time in our history when children were supposed to be seen and not heard. They had little rights and were not taken seriously. This was the situation across the board and not just a catholic problem. Thanks to our child protection laws and changes in attitude it is no longer acceptable in our society. It still goes on but there are many safeguards in place and the catholic church adheres to all the child protection regulations in place. Who are you referring to when you say the hierarchy are seeking to blame the victims for their suffering?

YANBU but forget trying to get any sense out of Catholics here. It's been tried before. As someone who was brought up in it, I can tell you that reasoned argument does not work and of course it cannot work because Catholicism, like all other religions, makes no logical sense and is an afront to liberal values. You will endlessly be told that you just hate Catholics and your arguments will not be answered in an intelligent way.

Or you will be told 'but what about the monarchy, Islam,other heads of state etc...'. The point is, that most of us who object to paying for this visit, object to all sorts of other nonsense like the monarchy, established state religion, paying for visits of unelected heads of state etc...

What really bothers me is that we are expected to pay for the visit of a head of an organisation which is already allowed so many concessions in this country simply because it is a religious institution. What other organisation can get away with so blatantly condemning homosexuality, legally excluding women and gay men from their highest posts, advising their followers that they are better off risking death than using contraception etc...?

Seeker

I am outraged by the child abuse perpetrated by people whoever they are.

I am especially outraged at the child abuse committed by members of the Catholic Faith if only because I now am forced to defend my faith and child abuse simultaneously to people who seem unable to seperate the two.

I am outraged.
I am outraged and intolerent of child abusers.
When I meet child abusers (and unfortunately I am aware of two, who incidently are Cof E Christians) I am not afraid to ignore them and let everyone I know know what they are.

I am outraged that the current Pope (the Pope is a position as well as a man and it is the man that I have the issue with) has enabled details of child abuse to remain hidden and that he is not blasting this whole episode wide open so that it can be sorted out so that it can never happen again.

The current Pope has covered up, I suspect that the selection of future Pope's will give more scrutiny to any candidates history.
I will not stop being a Catholic and I hope that all Catholic child abusers are outed so that the rest of us non child abusing Catholics may practise our faith inspite of the kind of attitudes apparent on this thread.

There!
One outraged Catholic!

And guess what? There are hundreds of thousands more of us.

There you go.
What next Seeker? I suggest you start with the Police force. Ask for one single policeman to come on and say that they are disgusted with Police men who are know to have commited child abuse.

If you don't I suspect you'll be accused of double standards!

It's true seeker.....child abuse goes on in lots of institutions (sadly)....not sure why the catholic church has to be singled out.

wildmutt

• re state run homes. you are quite right, but we are not in a position where the head of social services is to this day covering up abuse.
• re abuse in C of E facilities. I am not aware that the C of E runs many care homes, boarding homes etc etc, like the catholics do. CofE tens to operate by having a license to interfere with run state schools. Examples of the abuse you are talking of please? Certainly if I found that the Archbish is involved in a cover up like the pope seems to have been, then I'd boo him as well.

it's not really about what religion the pope is, it's about misogyny, child abuse, condoms etc etc.

Can I ask the Catholics out there to please explain to me what they think about the church's position on women and contraception? Seriously. I really want to know.

Why Jenny? Surely that's a different topic altogether.

Stubborn at last someone prepared to hear about the past child abuse within the COE and the Coverups.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566826/C-of-E-child-abuse-was-ignored-for-decades.html

Hope the above link works.

Thank you, easywriter. Now, what are you doing about it?

What are you doing about it?

I am saying I am outraged and I do not stand by such a man as the Pope who is involved.
What would you like me to do?

wildmutt

it's terrible.
but at least note the very appropriate, immediate response from the ArchBish.

"The Church is to launch an urgent investigation on an unprecedented scale.

It will look at the records of thousands of clergy ? including those who have retired ? church employees, lay workers and volunteers dating back decades in an attempt to expose those who have previously escaped prosecution and identify those who pose "current risks".

Dioceses will appoint independent reviewers with access to all of their personnel files. These are due to be examined over an 18-month period"

why doesn't the pope do that?

Seeker....you are insatiable

What easywriter said. Most Catholics I know are also disgusted and outraged by what has happened. I pray that current and future Church leaders and hierarchy will learn from and never repeat the grave mistakes that were made.

And there's the problem Seeker.

You register your outrage and then what next?
As I've said (and I hope, explained why) I won't cease to be a catholic.

But then what?

Yes, it's a different topic in some ways, but I want to understand how Catholics can be outraged by the recent cover up, and yet remain within the church. I'm just wondering what it would take to get people to leave the church, what would be a step too far if covering up child abuse isn't it? I'm assuming here that the people who are outgared about the child abuse cover up would also be outraged about the position of women, contraception etc.. but wanted to make sure.

Stubborn, The Catholic church has responded and is investigating and taking action now. Yes in the past they covered up like all the other institutions but they are acting now. There have been mass legal settlements in the US and elsewhere. The Catholic church has made similar responses as those of the Archbishop.

link?