To think you and your partner ar unemployed you shouldnt really be trying for another child...

[Nointhemood]

probably be flamed for this. But I know a couple who have two small young children under 3 and are trying for another even though neither have managed to find employment in the last few years. I would love to have another child but even with a dh in a job we couldnt afford it just doesnt seem fair.Im not saying that people on benefits shouldnt have children as each cicircumstance is different etc.But surely with a couple who can both work and aren't exactly childless there should be mor responsible. I feel really angry tbh that we can'y afford to have a child and wouldn't dream of it in their situation

Is it not right that having children that you can't support "raises esteem". It is not down to the taxpayer to do that. Being in that situation used to be shameful!

People used to live much shittier lives pre benefits. Real, real hardship and huge families (pre contraception) living in too small accommodation. I don't want to see those days again, but there must be some middle ground.

Why can't anyone take responsiblilty for themselves anymore?

It is impossible for the State to fill in the gaps left by inadequate parenting. They can try but are only able to deal with the very worst cases - there aren't the resources to deal with the merely inadequate.

I come from a family in South Wales. There was no more work in the mines so my grandfather saved up for the train fare for his wife and son and cycled to London where there was work. Obviously that is extreme but people don't want to move where there is work nowadays. They want to stay where they are and have the welfare state to fall back on when there are no jobs

It is an explaination, not nec an excuse.

There should be secure, skilled and unskilled jobs, protected by union membership. People should have access to affordable housing,education and training at an appropriate level, and they should be able to have the families they want to have. The capitalist, privatised, individulistic system we live in has fucked those ideals right over, to the extent that the only security and belonging some people feel is through sprogging and, worse, they are demonised for doing so.

Responsibility is great, but should be collective as well as individualistic.

My friend who used to work at the job centre told me that the reason you see some single women with 5 or 6 kids by different fathers with big age gaps is because when the youngest reaches a certain age the mother has to look for work and come off IS so they end up getting pregnant again!!! I find it hard to believe this is true and really hope it isn't would people be so low ??

definitely agree about affordable housing if we could afford a bigger then we would defintely consider dc3. House prices and rents are too high in this country

I agree about the housing. The UK has got totally obsessed about making money from property in a way that most other countries haven't. And the lack of social housing, yes. Education and training is available though.

Because Thatcher sold the council houses off

If housing was cheaper dh salary would actually be quite good and we would be in a much better situation

There was a right to buy policy 20 years ago, yes. There has been plenty of opportunity to change the way social housing has been managed since then, surely?

yellowvan, if people did not get benefits just for sprogging, then perhaps there will be less demonisation of the unemployed sproggers.

The benefits system is seen as enabling the feckless.

Nointhemood, I would not be surprised your story is true. It is very rational behaviour from people who live to work the system. Hence the need for a cap on the number of children you are entitled to claim benefits for.

Yes, I heard that the benefits you claim change when a child reaches 7 yo and the explanation seems to fit the many mums at dcs school that have babies and an 8+ yo. They then complain the house isn't big enough - how can an 8 yo share with a baby, etc and look to HA/LA to sort it for them. It's their rights innit .

But you have to support the children!people will always have children (see above!!!!) until there is a 'carrot'reason not to (proper work,etc etc ). You cannot fuck those children over!!!

But if the cash wasn't so freely available then surely people would think twice about the next baby! If you had 2 and KNEW that you would get no more money for 3.....

But if the safety net wasn't there the children wouldn't be born. Knowing the system will see you OK means you don't face the consequences of your selfishness.

yellowvan, "We have all heard tales of the teen who gets pregnant ' to get a house'. There needs to be something else available for that teen so they don't need to do that in order to be taken as an adult/ have independence/feel valued."

The alternative is ambition. To realise ambition, you need education. That is already freely available.

One of the families on my road is on benefits (their house is owned by a housing trust). The son is 8 and used to go to the local school. He was expelled into a 'naughty school' which is further away. Every morning without fail, the schoolbus comes to pick him up. He/his mother makes the schoolbus wait, every morning. He sits at the window staring at the schoolbus. Neither he nor his mother makes an effort to get him changed and come downstairs. I have to leave for work so I don't know how long that goes on for.

If education is freely available and families are given every support to access it, I don't see why it is necessary to go any further for people who don't want to be responsible for themselves.

The best thing is ensure they have no financial incentive to reproduce (note I have not said anything about sterilisation, just no benefits for having children).

oh blueshoes That is not a benefit thing, I don't even know what kind of a thing that is....

carrot, carrot.....in a civilised society, if you want to break the (given, not ideal) situ, you have to tempt/enable them, not beat them.
They will have the 3rd kid anyway (for reasond i tried to give above). I want a nice way to avoid that, not one which risks child poverty, is blaming etc etc

What carrot can you possibly give people though? Why should people have to be "tempted" from living an idle life when they have a family to support?

Education: on paper , available, in reality, not always terribley accessible/relevant. Many secondary schools a testament to that. Where are the non-skilled jobs? the apprenticeships where a "dad" figure takes you under their wing? A way in for chn of 'workless' parents?

How are you going to tempt people who have no skills and no ambition and who come from generations with a similar mindset into work without capping benefits? I honestly don't know how you do that.

yellowvan, no matter what, there will always be an underclass of people who don't engage with right-thinking society, how ever much 'temptation' you fling at them to pull themselves out of their situation.

It is important that these people are not financially rewarded for reproducing. Otherwise you simply swell their ranks, as Labour had done with their softly softly approach.

The other approach is to remove children from the feckless, people like Karen Matthews.

That is however not currently the right solution, as the care system is so chaotic and outcomes for children in care so dire.

I would like to see better alternatives to foster care in place to facilitate this.

In the short term, sadly, people have to be forced to do the work that no one wants to do, the work that the immigrants have picked up. There is many a child whose mind was focussed on his education because he didn't want to go down the pit like his dad.

That sounds really twee I know. But that is the reality now! And I agree with YellowVan, bring back the apprenticeships. Stop all this bollocks that everyone must go to Uni.

Carrot= a way to be valued through work, not agency or short contract grunt-work, but proper unionised, 'part of a team' useful and long term work suited to your skills. And in a community to which you feel you belong. In that way, you will build esteem and community and just maybe, the aching hole that at present can only be filled by constant reproduction may be filled.

I keep trying to make the point that there are reasons other than generous benefits for having lots of children 'you can't afford'.

I think it is the capitalist sysem, not the benefits system, which is at the heart of it.

yellowvan, so how are you going to create these community-inspiring unionised jobs for people with no skills or education?

Do you know an alternative to the capitalist system that actually works?