To think you and your partner ar unemployed you shouldnt really be trying for another child...

[Nointhemood]

probably be flamed for this. But I know a couple who have two small young children under 3 and are trying for another even though neither have managed to find employment in the last few years. I would love to have another child but even with a dh in a job we couldnt afford it just doesnt seem fair.Im not saying that people on benefits shouldnt have children as each cicircumstance is different etc.But surely with a couple who can both work and aren't exactly childless there should be mor responsible. I feel really angry tbh that we can'y afford to have a child and wouldn't dream of it in their situation

seashore, I only have fun on mn! Especially when it comes to challenging group think. Don't feel sorry, weigh in.

Otherwise, I'll be the one pitying you.

Well presumably if you can earn 42k a year from not working and merely procreating then I'd say that was a bit of an incentive yellowvan.

Actually seashore, your views don't seem to be holding up very well on this thread.

Erm, should I feel sorry for you because you are having a 'bad time'? You realise how silly you sound now.

Yellowvan: "Cutting welfare is a piss poor response. If we want to stop it (multiple procreation), increase self worth in other ways-carrot not stick."

I would be inclined to agree with the second part of your sentence, except that Labour had a good go at it and that has not got us anywhere, except increase the ranks of the feckless and their sense of entitlement.

It is time for the other approach - we need to stop incentivising procreation for its own sake.

yellowvan

I don't think welfare should be cut (well not for this reason anyway). But I do think it should no longer be linked to the number of children someone chooses to have.

I believe there should be a maximum that you can claim. Say 2 adults, 2 kids, living wage sort of thing. If you choose to have more than that, working or not working, you need to make allowance accordingly.

Nointhemood - what if the couple in question win lotto next week - does that make it ok then?

Obviously as long as they win enough to support their kids

The 'carrot' costs money, yellowvan. So that's not going to be forthcoming.

haha well if we won the lottery wouldn't we all be unemployed and have lots of children if we had the choice!!!

If I won the lottery, I would be living on a yacht in the South of France.

yes, expat. sad tho isn't it, that investment in jobs, education, family support etc blah etc costs 'so much' thats its deemed easier just to attack the 'victims' (and they are vicimised here and in the press). It's not going to get any better either, is it?

No, it won't get any better, YV, sadly. I knew I shouldn't have watched 'Money Watch' tonight.

Oh God ExP no don't do it.

You know what i'm like- normally right in there with the mis-fst but we're actively not doing that; take it a week at a time, clear the bills as they come in, heads down, keep moving forwards and pray that we make it out the other side intact.

Tis the only way but beating ourselves up about what might happen won't help a jot!

They are not ALL victims though. Some people, fair enough, know no better. Others play the system for all it is worth. The system is wrong, not necessarily the people.

There are some people who don't want to work though. That's a fact. I have no problem with the benefits system - I'm proud that no one in the UK is left to starve and that we all have access to adequate health care. But there are some people that take the piss.

My sister has a chronic illness and can't work but the battery of test she has to go to ascertain that she isn't lying and is entitled to Attendance Allowance makes me want to weep. But there are some people who are just stealing.

Don't get me wrong - the rich are equally guilty of trying to screw the system. It's the people in the middle who get fucked over.

I know a couple who went on to have 8 and neither have worked as they have a disabled child (who is in school) and said if she has to go hospital the other will need to watch the kids so the jobcentre said neither will ever need to work. Should they have stopped at two? It's still their right to choose surely. They could never earn more than what they get in benefits in reality.

Yes, if they never worked they should have stopped at 2! There is no excuse for that.

I put victims in quotes because I know its not quite the right word.
But the point I'm trying to make is ther has to be an alternative first.

We have all heard tales of the teen who gets pregnant ' to get a house'. There needs to be something else available for that teen so they don't need to do that in order to be taken as an adult/ have independence/feel valued.

The something else (work, education) needs to come first. Same with multiple kids, sometimes the kids bring the only sense of 'being needed' the parents have. This need needs to be met in another way before yoy start linking benefits to no of kids (which obv only punishes the kids- no-one needs punishing here)

But free education is available! Otherwise they have to save up for their flat like the blimming rest of us!

A feeling of being needed is no reason for taxpayers to pay for accommodation/livelihood. Get a fecking job!

what Portofino said.

That's what my husband says. I am not sure though. It is kind of hard when you see them going abroad etc and with two 7 seater cars and no money worries at all but then again it must be hard having so many close in age and with a child with disabilities and people looking down on you (I know some do). I wonder if the new government would make one of them work?

It's about accessibility in the realest of real senses. Bottom line is, unskilled work (and education)that gives a sense of belonging and relevance (not just agency shit)is not available in the quantity it once was. Some people therefore feel on the shit heap. Having kids raises esteem. Work and family (your parents)should do this. Oftentimes they cannot.

Haven't you noticed, ther are no jobs! (70 applicabnts per grad job in the news today)