to wonder why some intelligent educated people just don't discipline their dcs?

[mayonaise]

Me, DH and our 3 dcs have just had an exhausting week with old friends of ours who came to stay with their 3 dcs. It was a nightmare.

We were friends with this other couple before any of us had children. Me and DH are quite strict I guess, we take the view that the parents are ultimately in charge, there are consequences for undesirable behaviour and the dcs have to pull their weight around the house.

Our friends dcs were rude to us and their parents, never picked anything up and either me or their mum did it, whined and demanded everything with no manners, refused to eat the food I cooked, and one of them was quite mean to my dd.

These are lovely old friends of ours, intelligent, succesful, civilised adults, so what are they thinking letting their dcs behave like this? Can't they see they are going to have such a huge problem on their hands, tbh they do already....

I don't usually get fussed about how other people discipline their children but we have friends who are very much the 'don't do that it's socially unacceptable'type. Don't get me wrong it's fine for them, but my problem with it is their son has consistently hit my son and they dont say anything about it. My son bless him took matters into his own hands and told him he didn't like being hit and didnt want to play with him. We did have them visit for a week and their DD now hits as well. Both DH & I continued with our style of parenting which i wouldn't say is strict but the kids help tidy and causing pain to others is not accepted. On one occasion their DS pushed my DS1 and he again told him not to do it. Their DS shouted at him 'how dare you tell me not to push you' and fixed him with a quite strange and what even I found to be quite a scary stare, i was more than a little scared. I actually asked him to stop staring at DS1 like that. His mother said 'he's probably just defending himself because he is worried he will get in trouble'. I think she was meaning from me as she certainly never says anything. On another occasion he blew snot onto our floor like it was a normal thing to do. DH went mental. While i was pregnant he punch me in the stomach and has drawn on our wall so many times. When he did it one time his mother said, if you did that at home Daddy would be cross. I couldn't help myself and i said 'well it's not really any different doing it in our house'.

veggiemum, that child sounds really scary and a tad on the sociopathic side. If that were me I would not be inviting them over again.

just wanted to ask question/ open up another part of the debate,

Does anyone know children who do things in their own homes - eg drawing on walls/ breaking things who DON'T do it elsewhere??

Does anyone think this is because they know its wrong but do it because they get away with it NOT because they think it's ok???

Not really related to any incident just interested.

My kids tend not to be destructive, but I was always perpetually surprised that so many people phoned me up when DD had been to stay, congratulating me on her behaviour and telling me how domesticated and cheerful she was. I was convinced they were talking about someone else's kid. DD is wonderful in many ways but domesticated she ain't and she is extremely grumpy in the mornings!! Gawd bless her.

I do try not to judge although it would be rather hard in your own house.

Went to a BBQ at the weekend and I must say one child, who was about 2ish did end up getting on my nerves (or rather his parents did).
He was in one of those baby walker things which I thought, but am by no means an expert on, were considered very dangerous.Anyway, he repeatedly rammed into my feet, I lost count of the number of times I had to stick my foot out to stop him wheeling over it. He also kept ramming into my friends feet, then several other guests who all began to make comments along the lines of"Oh be careful you might get hurt" etc, etc,m whilst muttering to each other to look out hear he comes yet again. The thing was he was racing backwards as well as forwards in a very confined space, the garden was huge but he was left on the patio area near the BBQ and adults. His parents sat drinking and eating and left him to it. Eventually someone(not either parent) picked him out of the death contraption and guided him towards his mum, where we discoverd he could actually walk very well!

My children are (and how they got there so quickly constantly amazes me) 27 and 29, 14hours! Which is odd really since I thought I was still just a smidgeon past 28....

But I think you may have misunderstood my post AliGrylls. I wasn't suggesting complete anarchy or even apathy as a parenting style. Let alone that children should be left to bring themselves up. I didn't sit back and watch my sons deconstruct all around them in between snacking on visiting children. At the relevant time I worried constantly about getting the balance right since I'm a huge fan of good manners yet equally, dislike rules for the sake of rules and certainly fervently detest the sort of parenting that is little more than a series of punishments. I wanted my sons to grow up into well balanced, independent, capable, amusing and more than anything, thoughtful adults and I could only go by my instincts which suggested a mixture of fairness and consistency delivered in a loving home where people (and possessions) were respected. Not that all these objectives were easy to achieve or that I didn't fail spectacularly at times.

But because I've been there, observed all my friends and family going through the same quandaries and come out the other side, I'm now able to see the results. Which suggest that children have a remarkable habit of growing into very civilised adults despite the apparent odds!

The good thing is all the bratty, spoiled kids I ever knew turned into lovely young adults, much to my surprise.

GlorisSmut - that's all fine and good to know, but I need them to behave within reasonable bounds now not in 20 years time.

Ive thought about this alot recently. Ive just come back from a very well known music festival and got camped next to a group of very middle class public school teenagers. Ive never felt so intimidated in my life. They were absolute bullies to me and my friends (too old to be near them? too northern for them?) if we were out they would pour booze and god knows what over our tents. All they did was talk very loudly about themselves and who they had done what with and accidently fall into our tents whilst we were in them. I did wonder what the parents would think if they could see their little darlings. It was like been stuck in an episode of skins. Then, one of their mums turns up to camp with them..... so was just as freaking bad. One of the gang. So, if you are from the Somerset region and your child goes to a posh day school there and they happened to be at a festival last weekend, pray they dont belong to you! bloody awful, has put be right off going back!

LOL at your DD being a paragon in other people's homes, BoffinMum. My DSS1 is not inclined to do anything domestic at all and thinks that the world revolves around him at home; somehow, when we stay with my parents, he morphs into an angel, keeping his room tidy at all times, volunteering to do the washing up and quietly doing his holiday homework in the first week of the summer holidays

There are a few families where the parents do not discipline much and are probably proud that their children are wilful, outspoken, in control of others.

The trouble is, although it goes against the grain completely to what I know due to my own parents' strictness and sense of responsibility, I can see that it has benefits for that child.

In a group of children the one that cries the loudest or asks the most seems to benefit the most.

Fortunately most people don't parent like this, otherwise we'd be in trouble.

You are very right, MarshaBrady; and those children can grow up and become very unpleasant yet materially very successful individuals, completely impervious to the feelings of others, driven only by the placating of their own immediate needs.

I try to teach my children the art of self-defence against such individuals - what more can you do?

I know one guy who is an investment banker - he described his childhood as a perfect training for investment banking :-/

I think that's a good way of putting it, Bonsoir, almost like defence against the dark arts.

I tell my female students that all this quiet, inoffensive, considerate, positive work ethic stuff is great for building communities, but terrible for ensuring equal pay in the workplace, which is much more Darwinian. They look at me in shock when I tell them that few people get rewarded with handsome promotions or pay rises for getting on with their work nicely and trying hard. It's standing out that gets you the prizes. Sadly.

I absolutely know what other people mean about braying middle class kids being a pain as well. We went to a nice hotel in Gstaad for a holiday a few years back, and one wealthy family with four teenage kids practically took the place over, divebombing toddlers in the swimming pool and dominating the games room, pushing the younger kids off the table football and so on. Glamorous parents just lay on the sun loungers and smiled as it all kicked off. My answer was to dive bomb back whenever possible, which did have some effect. I am a lot bigger than the average teenager and I see it as using my postnatal size to its fullest advantage.

In another hotel we stayed at in Saalbach-Hinterglemm a similar group of 14-16 year olds dominated the lovely spa, spoiling it for all the adults. I had the idea that DH and I should strip off and wander round in all our middle aged glory, completely buck naked (you can do that in Austrian spas). I tell you, you coulnd't see those kids for dust after we did that.

It's a war out there, but we moderates do have weapons in our armory. We must remember that.

It is hardest for the child that becomes 'best-friends' with the one that can demand and always get what they want, a life of learning how to comply. Eek!

'I've had this kind of problem with my husband's best friend's familly.
They live in South Africa and keep inviting us over (costs a fortune ), but the worst bit is that although my Dh and his friend get on really well, I don't get on with his wife.
She only has us over to keep her DH happy and I really don't like the atmosphere.
My DH says that we can't afford to stay anywhere else and they do have a massive 7 bedroomed house.
Her kids go to bed early and get up for school at 7.30am and are back by 2pm, but they do lots of classes in the afternoon, so we don't see them that much and we are left to our own devices.
Which begs the question, if they want us over, why can't they organise it as a holiday for the two famillies, so that we don't impose ourselves on their daily routines?
And to top it all, it is Winter down there!'

Just say no then???

I have a narcissistic pain of a FIL and hate it when we stay with them, but we do, due to cost and because hubby wants to... so put a smile on my face, grit my teeth and make the best of it for that short time.

I have often had people staying over from the States and SA and I am unable to get off work for them always. Would be far too costly for me, always taking leave when we happen to have guests over.

Chat to your DH... and go during school holidays so the kids can spend time together... and maybe you can get to know the friend's wife a bit more when she isn't so busy running her busy household and looking after guests...?

Re kids and boundaries... they NEED them. Parents are not friends, they are parents. Short term pain sometimes, but long term gain.

I am AMAZED by passive parenting.... eg: when a parent has to bribe their child with somehting nice to eat to get them in the car every day... it's ludicrous. The little one has the parents wrapped round their lil finger.

Visiting friends and family often comment on how their kids 'change' (are calmer and better behaved) when they're visiting my home... we have lots of fun with the kids, we eat no junk... and there are rules (like not jumping on the furniture, and sitting at th table to eat, not interrupting when adults are talking etc..), and that's that.

Kids respect parents/teachers/people in authority more if they know where they stand with them.

I think that's right. It's not just about how the kids turn out, it's also about the family having a degree of sanity while they are growing up.

You are on a losing wicket if you try to get your children to like you. IMO that is an optional extra. I see my job primarily as bringing them up nicely to be functional adults, socially, financially and domestically.

It is very odd - there is a litte boy (6) in ds's class who has 4 Nintendo DS (a new one each time theres a new release!) and a tv in his room and a Wii and is allowed to do whatever he likes/is indulged in everyway - behaviorally and emotionally etc etc - when my ds asks why he doesnt have any of that I have to say 'well little Johnny doesnt see his dad at all as he works 50 weeks a year and weekends etc what do you think is better?'

DS - 'I'd rather have a Wii mummy'. tsk.

They are old parents though. I do feel quite sorry for the mum though - yesterday she told me she dreads the holidays as her ds is so badly behaved.

" it's also about the family having a degree of sanity while they are growing up. "

Oh totally agree. But there might be some debate as to whether a very strictly disciplined family is saner than one that is less so. I have a hatred of petty rules so we just rely on a few basic ones - consideration of others, taking responsibility for yourself as much as possible, thinking of the consequences of your actions. It seems to work.

Which petty rules do you dislike most Orm?

Don't think my parents had petty rules either, but want to be sure...

Oh I don't know. Don't wear you shoes in the house. Don't draw/work at the dining room table, only the kitchen table. No pudding if you don't eat all your first course (even if the first course is too big). No interrupting adults ever - even if what you have to say is really exciting and important. No coming into mum and dad's room. Don't walk on walls on the way into town. Stand next to me and hold my hand all the time when we are out. Don't make so much noise - even when you are being happy and laughing like a drain. Don't talk to strangers because they are almost certainly paedophiles. Don't! Stop! Musn't! Bla blah blah....

You know - the kinds of rules and regime designed to stop children being children and result in a nicely calm dull adult-dominated world.

That's ok then. My family was happy, talkative, a bit ramshackle and could be quite messy around the edges. And laugh, and talk all that (six of us). Although my mother would change a bit when her mother was around!

But yes to socially responsible, and the others you mentioned.

The path to ruin I think is using bribery and toys for every transaction, or pandering to every wish. So a middle ground, I do agree.

I saw a couple the other week when we were out. They had 3 children. Every time one of them went more than a yard or so from their parents they got ordered to come back. We were at an open day for an animal rescue centre so just the kind of thing most children get excited about, but they were like little dogs kept on an invisible leash. 'Don't got to close, don't touch, don't do that' was quite sad.