to wonder why some intelligent educated people just don't discipline their dcs?

[mayonaise]

Me, DH and our 3 dcs have just had an exhausting week with old friends of ours who came to stay with their 3 dcs. It was a nightmare.

We were friends with this other couple before any of us had children. Me and DH are quite strict I guess, we take the view that the parents are ultimately in charge, there are consequences for undesirable behaviour and the dcs have to pull their weight around the house.

Our friends dcs were rude to us and their parents, never picked anything up and either me or their mum did it, whined and demanded everything with no manners, refused to eat the food I cooked, and one of them was quite mean to my dd.

These are lovely old friends of ours, intelligent, succesful, civilised adults, so what are they thinking letting their dcs behave like this? Can't they see they are going to have such a huge problem on their hands, tbh they do already....

I am amazed at the number of parents (some friends of mine for example) who allow their small children to hit, punch, kick or slap them when they don't get their own way.

If I had done that to my mother even once, hell would have broken loose. I go cold thinking about it.

yanbu - my closest friend is as discibed by pp above. I do think again its about being embarrassed.

unfortunatly its a vicious circle - never saying no when out to avoid scene - when HAVE to say no scene is a monster one - end up giving in as hate to break a promise.

Support your friend. Next time your out talk to her dc's (nicely) but make it clear behaviour is unaceptable. I was too scared at first to do this as friend seemed so lax but after the 100th time of house being trashed etc and them hiding in my room when asked to tidy cos they all wanted computer, dvd and popcorn etc I started to put my foot down. my house my rules.

It has worked really well - she now seems to have taken on board some of my stategies and I in turn have relaxed a bit more and learnt some things such as pick your battles from her way.

RESULT: we now have lovely days out together.

I agree with you, mayonaise.

I have some lovely, civilised, highly-educated friends with all sorts of laudable ambitions for their DCs. The trouble is that they completely overlook the basics! Think reading to their DCs individually morning and evening for half-an-hour since birth... but seven year old cannot use a knife and fork...

Sometimes it's just that people have different opinions on what matters. My friend thinks I am a slack parent because I don't make ds (2) sit still at the table until everyone has finished (I don't let him run crazy during the meal but once he has finished he is allowed to get down). But then her dc's hit and spit at people and she doesn't tell them off.

My ds could not use a knife and fork at 7 . We thought we were dreadful parents who had totally failed to reinforce the basics, we nagged him at every opportunity and have not doubt that we were judged wherever we went. When he was 8 he was diagnosed with a painful joint condition. -But why did you never tell us it hurt? -I thought that was how it was for everybody and it was just one of those things you didn't talk about.
Because he was told off and punished for his awful table manners, he naturally thought this was something he ought to be able to overcome.
Quick revising of dreadful-parents judgment; we had been dreadful, but not in being too lax.

OP, your friends' dcs sound dreadful. But don't you think some of it might be because the mother felt stressed and judged:
"I'm sure we annoyed them too, perhaps when I suggested her 9 year old ds could just not have any dinner instead of his mum going and making him a sandwich because he didn't like what I cooked"
I am sure you would not have done this with an adult guest: surely this suggestion was intended to improve her parenting- and she probably resented it.

I did find when I stayed at my parents with ds, because they nagged him all the time (mainly for his poor table manners) that I found it very hard to keep to my usual consistent parenting: I either went way over the top and nagged him all the time (and then they criticised me for that) or else I tried to cover up for him so as not to draw even more attention to him. And of course he got more and more stressed and less and less compliant. In no way were those weeks a fair record either of his behaviour or of my parenting.

But obviously that can't account for everything. No doubt your friends' dcs are truly dreadful.

Hell is other people (or their children). I only have one DD, but DH's friend came to stay and brought his three sons. They were a nightmare, even DD was shocked at their behavior. Friend seemed too worn down by it to discipline them effectively and the 8 days they were here felt like 8 months.

I'm often shocked by the ineffectualness (is that a word?) of some parents, and the way some children behave in public and in the company of others. I feel so sorry for mayonaise - regardless of background, parental success or other Freudian explanations her so-called friends should have enough respect for her and her home to ensure that their children behave whilst enjoying her hospitality. I agree with rainbowfizz's point too about so-called "successful" parents who seem to believe that their children are somehow entitled to be a menace to society. We live in a community populated by highly-educated, middle class parents who behave in exactly this fashion ( a blanket statement, I know) and these children are the most demanding, whingy and rude by far!! My own DD is no great shakes in the politeness department sometimes, but I hope she knows how to behave in other people's company and she knows exactly what the ramifications of poor behaviour are!! No child is ever perfect, but I find that the less "liberal" the parent, the better behaved and less spoilt the children are.

cory - what is your point? The parents in question in my post have not even tried to teach their children to eat with a knife and fork - food comes chopped up, with a spoon.

Have a very similar experience with several sets of or friends. Educated long standing friends. In all cases, both parents overcompensate or their very strict upbringings by being incredibly laid back about discipline both at their house and ours.

One of the girls just wees on the floor when she wants attention. She is 6. Another boy just punches his brother when he does not get what he wants. There is always physical damage to our house such as scribbling on walls. Our children never did that even when tiny and we are talking about 6 - 10 yr olds here.

We are 'stricter than average' according to our DSs but only because we dont give them literaly everything they want and don't let them stay up until 10.00 pm at age 8 and 10.

When our friends leave we breathe a sigh of relief and then feel sad about our friendships. Two sets of friends we just stopped inviting because of it.

I've seen this too. I think some people are too concerned with trying to be their childrens 'friends' rather than being a bit less popular and taking control.

It comes from surprising quarters too sometimes. People who wouldn't put up with it for a second at work or in other areas of life are doormats to their own dc.

Maybe it's seen as an easier option. But it's not in the long run because everything is a shambles and no-one enjoys your company as a family.

No-one on mumsnet ever admits to being the laissez-faire parent that everyone posts about. You might find that your friends consider that you are the slack parents, because you let things go that they don't. Most parents try and discipline, and most parents make choices about which battles they want to fight.

I think there's just too many parents that fear their children not loving them because they lay the law down.
Bollocks to that. We have firm boundaries in our house about behaviour and manners.
My kid is not my friend. She has friends. I'm the parent, it's my job to be disliked because I insist on certain rules of going about things.
One of my biggest horrors is the idea that when we turn up at someone's house, we are the visitors that people dread because of their little twatting offspring.
I have no problem in saying things to other people's kids either, if I think they are out of line. I just think - if you can't keep your kids in line, I'm not scared to do it.
And what's even stranger - all the kids want to play at our house all the bloody time. Perhaps because it is because they know exactly where they stand with manners etc.
I do consider myself a liberal parent, though.

It's just different styles of parenting. They probably pull the children up more in the comfort of their own homes but they were on holiday and probably didn't want your house in uproar everytime one of the children misbehaved, in your opinion.

I never ruled my DD with a rod of iron and I suppose I was fairly lassez faire. I had a few people telling me I was storing up trouble, mainly inlaws, but I have to say they were prooved wrong, spectacularly.

I often smile to myself when I read on here and come across parents who like to think that because the are strict their children will turn out better than children of parents who are less so. It's not always the case.

I do know what you mean Op, although I think that the comment about going without dinner was a bit OTT. However, I'm not sure what you had to put up with beforehand.
One of my cousins is like this with her children - they always have to be the centre of attention and they have no manners. Fortunately, she's also paranoid about dogs attacking her precious little shits angels, so she won't come to our house any more. Which is fine by me, as she hadn't noticed I stopped inviting her to come about two years ago.

sil is like this her dd she can do no wrong shes never been told no she only needs to ask and she gets shes 13 now and very spiteful when mothers not around, but butter wouldn't melt when she's there i've heard some downright nasty things come from her and when mentioned she refuses to believe it.Dont speak at all now after everything her and her dd have put dd2 through[long story]

Ikwym border. Friends dd's like this and of course I get they're not like this at home etc but I know cos at home they get even if it takes a temper tantrum.

They are however extremly well behaved at school and friend secretly smug about this as my ds who everyone comments on his lovely behaviour is actually quite a pita at school!!!

I do feel sypmathy for these parents as its a no win situation. You ignore and get bad behaviour or try and intervene and get ww3 and told how horrid you are and hit etc

OK hands up! I am a laissez-faire parent much of the time. And (I think) my DC are pretty OK. The only exception being DS2 who is a pita - we also beleive he may have mild aspergers - but totally adorable.

I will admit to finding it difficult to stomach the 'I'm the adult you will do what I say without question' attitude to being a parent. It goes against everything I beleive. But with DS2 we are having to be more strict as well as more patient than with the older 2.

We went to a Castle the other weekend. Inside one of the display areas was the most dreadful noise- lots of banging about and shouting. Turned out to be the 2x 8-10 (ish) year old sons of some yummy-mummy type.

She was downstairs calling "William! Peter! Come down darling" while they just rampaged around. Then while everyone was watching the display they and a couple of friends were racing backwards and forwards shouting and screeching. Several people gave the parents a "look" but they were clearly uninterested. As long as the children weren't anywhere near them..

It always does seem to be a certain "type" of parent too- well heeled and a bit special.

Never mind parenting styles. You have 3dc and host another family with 3 more dcs? For one week? You are brave!

I don't understand the 'I'm a parent not a friend' attitude tbh. I expect everyone would hope to have a friendship with their DC's when they become all adults together.

I have watched a group of 10 girls, no experience of boys, grow up together. They all played at my house frequently. All from varied backgrounds and can say that they have all grown up to be nice girls. The 3 that gave their parents most grief aged 13-16 were from the strictest parents. However, they are growing out of that phase now.

when I stay with friends for a weekend, I "relax" about the kids, and let them eat pretty much what they want. I also might be a bit less strict and shouty so as not to spoil the atmosphere.

At home I would send kids to their room if naughty, but you cannot do that somewhere else.

I think that eating sandwiches, crisps ices and not much else will not do too much harm for a day or two, they get plenty of veg and fruit normally.

I try to be a relaxed parent.

BUt I would not let my DC be unpleasant to anyone!Or hurt or bully anyone. I do keep an eye on them.

My 7 and 5 year olds struggle with knife and fork sometimes, and often eat with their hands (esp. chips and pizza), but I do the same myself! Big deal.

I do think some people need to chill a bit.

I've had this kind of problem with my husband's best friend's familly.
They live in South Africa and keep inviting us over (costs a fortune ), but the worst bit is that although my Dh and his friend get on really well, I don't get on with his wife.
She only has us over to keep her DH happy and I really don't like the atmosphere.
My DH says that we can't afford to stay anywhere else and they do have a massive 7 bedroomed house.
Her kids go to bed early and get up for school at 7.30am and are back by 2pm, but they do lots of classes in the afternoon, so we don't see them that much and we are left to our own devices.
Which begs the question, if they want us over, why can't they organise it as a holiday for the two famillies, so that we don't impose ourselves on their daily routines?
And to top it all, it is Winter down there!

Sorry rambled on a bit, yes and the other thing is she thinks my kids are not disciplined and does not like my children winding up hers