to wonder why some intelligent educated people just don't discipline their dcs?

[mayonaise]

Me, DH and our 3 dcs have just had an exhausting week with old friends of ours who came to stay with their 3 dcs. It was a nightmare.

We were friends with this other couple before any of us had children. Me and DH are quite strict I guess, we take the view that the parents are ultimately in charge, there are consequences for undesirable behaviour and the dcs have to pull their weight around the house.

Our friends dcs were rude to us and their parents, never picked anything up and either me or their mum did it, whined and demanded everything with no manners, refused to eat the food I cooked, and one of them was quite mean to my dd.

These are lovely old friends of ours, intelligent, succesful, civilised adults, so what are they thinking letting their dcs behave like this? Can't they see they are going to have such a huge problem on their hands, tbh they do already....

OP YANBU!

We had something similar happen to us. Been friends nearly 10 years met the girl when we were both single, while travelling. Fast forward, she's got a dd, I have a dd same age. They came to stay with us for 4 , days and the friendship has cooled significantly. For me it's basically over.

My Dh and I have worked hard for the life we have and give our child. We have a big villa with our own pool, staff and a good lifestyle. My friend has nothing (her own choice). She's got a good degree but wants to work a 4 day week, put the child into daycare at 3 months and spends her day working for an eco warrier type charity part-time. Good on her, I think 'Live and let live'.

They came and she critisized me for our 4x4 car, our dryer (uses too much energy, blah), the fact that I don't work, etc. They both left a mess about the house, left the kitchen in a right old state after cooking, didn't offer to buy one meal, asked me to babysit while she slept for hours, her child was awful to mine, got away with any tantrum, pissing on the carpet, etc.

They left their rooms in a total mess, borrowed money off us to get a taxi and didn't say 1 single word of 'thank you'.

I was so glad to see the back of her and that is so sad after 10 years of friendship

Sorry but I do think that all children are inherently OK. They might not behave themselves as we would want all the time and they will do things wrong. But I refuse to beleive that some babies are born 'bad'. It doesn't make sense.

Agree with Orm. Some children are born more challenging, certainly. Depending on how their behaviour is managed by the significant adults (and as they get older, peers ) in their life, and the experiences they go through and how they apply them to their behaviour, you'll see different outcomes.

To suggest some children are born brats is naively simplistic.

I'm of the opinion that you can't always 'explain' everything. They are children and do not know what is best for them. What's the point of explaining to very young children (whoosh straight over their head). There should be some element of your the child and i'm the adult and i have superior knowledge being x amount of years older and you will have to do as i say. That's not to say that you should never listen to their point of view, but they should never be in charge- that's just asking for trouble.
My daughter tries to push the boundaries, ie, I say 2 biscuits, she argues 3. I say bedtime at 9, she says 9.30pm. I got around that by saying, right cos you have argued with me, you can now have 1 biscuit, got to bed at 8.30. It soon did the trick. I want an easy life as possible and giving into them just makes them worse, cos they are smart enough to know that you don't mean what you say. Don't be under the illusion that all is rosy though cos, just like any harassed mum i do sometimes shout, 'oh for god sake just have it, i can't argue today'. Hey yo. You've just got to try your best.
On a similiar note but a slightly different tangent, i worked in a youth offender's prisoner for 2 years. (15yr old-21 yr old). God that was hard. It was a constant battle with them, because if they could get you in a debate about rules they would. I was known as one of the strictist teachers who refused mostly to discuss my decisions. I got the distinct impression that this is how they have wore their parents down, to the point that parents were happy to have them roaming the streets at all hours just as long as they weren't getting any grief. And in my humble opinion the one thing that they nearly all had in common was a complete and utter lack of empathy. They could never make the connection between how they would feel if something happened to their family and maybe that's how other people feel (ie, when you're robbing them etc). So teach your kids empathy at the very least!!!

what methods are best for teaching empathy ?

Good grief pinkbeach, you could be talking about my sister. Her bloke criticised our dishwasher as a symbol of Western Excess, whilst he was cranking the air con in his own place. The sort of people who believe anyone whose wardrobe was not 100% charity-shop bought are "yuppies". Narrow minded, judgemental people, and guess what? Their boys have very loosely defined boundaries, threats are not followed-through, and as a result they have a very violent older boy and neither child is capable of any restraint or self discipline. All phone calls to sister are interrupted by screaming mayhem and their life is a total heavimg mess.

Meanwhile us "yuppies" live in relative peace with a DS who whilst not without issues, is mostly happy and sociable.

Oblomov, showing empathy is the best way to teach it. And pointing out kind behaviour on others, praising it. "what a nice man he was, to offer me his coat", or whatever!

thank you. i point out to ds1(6) emapthy . nice behaviour in him and others.
infact he has a bit too much empathy. he is funny. i told him that we must ignore ds2(nearly 2) when he has a tantrum. but he told me off " no mummy, you've got this one wrong" he said. "he's cross and he's trying to communicate something to us. i don't know what. but something. We can't ignore him. thats just wrong. he's my brother and i love him. i can't just sit by and let him cry".

to which i had to leave the lounge. and have a little giggle to myself. and then come back and try and persuade him that ignoring really is best. he's not convicned.

Oblomov - I have heard from another MNer who has Asperger's that she learnt empathy (she refers to it as cognitive empathy) because it didn't come naturally to her - and she always makes herself think "If I were that other person how would I feel if...".

Most people will naturally have a level of emotional empathy anyway - they will "feel" another's pain/feelings; but if they don't naturally and easily feel that, then cognitive empathy can be improved by remembering to think - "how would I feel if that were me?"

But as Snobear says - the best teaching is by example.

I just want to add we all have off days. My kids are normally OK and I normally am a consistent mum, however there was one time which three months later I still cringe about...One Sunday at church I was determined my youngest would be blessed as he was having a major operation the next day, now I don't normally make my kids go to church or have a blessing but they normally go along with me anyway so no biggie I thought. When the time came for the blessing he aged two and a half started hitting me so I carried him to the front tucked under my shoulder with him still hitting and squawking. While this is going on I heard someone saying "Don't do that darling your mummy wouldn't like it" My three and a half year old daughter is stood behind me lifting up my dress and showing my knickers to the entire congregation. On this particular sunday we were packed as another church was sharing our service and there was an awful lot of raised eyebrows. And I know an awful lot of them thought I was a dreadful mother (possibly with a Devil child!) but you know I think I am an OK mum, sometimes get it wrong sometimes right and try hard and I would try not to judge on one incident but a full week...

lousouthend lol at yr DD flashing the church...but I think on this thread, people aren't talking about one-off instances (which EVERY child will have, no matter what you do) but consistent giving in to demands and never setting boundaries. I have a friend (in the pysch world as it happens...) who describes herself as a "yes" parent. Fine, if you want to say "yes" to more or less every request in the first instance - but a "no" followed by a period of whining and tantruming which then gives rise to a parental "yes" - that's a great life lesson eh!

I remember reading somewhere that if at the start of an issue with your child you think you will end up giving in, just say yes to start with otherwise you end up reinforcing whinging...I try and remember that!

that's a good thing to remember, Turniphead - I must remember that too.

Lou - hope you were wearing your Sunday best knickers!

Pinkbeach, my bag is packed and I am coming over to show you how appreciative a houseguest can be. I am cooking you a nice dinner and then ushering you off for a night out while I babysit. My DS's will play nicely with yours and make you tea. In return I would like 30 minutes in the lovely pool and I promise to prevent all my offspring weeing in it.

I agree children's behavuior may be telling an adult something but do think its the adults place to help/teach/encourage a child to use words to descibe how they're feeling.

My DS got hit round the face once by a child and had a nasty cut very close his eye. Her mum tried to say it was because her dd isn't use to the stritchness of things. (ie I'm stritch) Fine it might be the childs reaction to a situation except for the fact 1) we were at the dd and her mums house so her rules etc, 2) this child threw tantrums with mum to get her own way and hit ds as he wouldn't give her the toy he had picked up 3 seconds before.

We no longer visited this family (kids were in nursery together) and what surprised me the most was as I got to know other parents it turned out many didn't visit or invite for the same reasons. Bit for the child really. Child is 6 now and have heard shes a model pupil in school but I have seen her in town hitting shouting abuse at her mum to get a toy she wants.

To the PP who asked about sudden change in 5 year ole. Yes I think its a stage just been through and come out the other side with my ds 5. Hang on in there