to wonder why some intelligent educated people just don't discipline their dcs?

[mayonaise]

Me, DH and our 3 dcs have just had an exhausting week with old friends of ours who came to stay with their 3 dcs. It was a nightmare.

We were friends with this other couple before any of us had children. Me and DH are quite strict I guess, we take the view that the parents are ultimately in charge, there are consequences for undesirable behaviour and the dcs have to pull their weight around the house.

Our friends dcs were rude to us and their parents, never picked anything up and either me or their mum did it, whined and demanded everything with no manners, refused to eat the food I cooked, and one of them was quite mean to my dd.

These are lovely old friends of ours, intelligent, succesful, civilised adults, so what are they thinking letting their dcs behave like this? Can't they see they are going to have such a huge problem on their hands, tbh they do already....

Oh, and I know it's not always going to WORK (whatever your style of discipline) I just think it's important to at least TRY...

I reserve my judgmentalism to "if your child is hitting another person or breaking something, make an attempt - a REAL attempt - to stop them. I don't really care how you go about this, short of abuse."

One of my friends is a reasoner. She'll reason all day. Another uses mini guilt trips ("Oh Poor cat, she's crying now"), another is a threatener, I am a bellow-then-explain-er... we all handle it differently but as long as they get the general idea, that we do not bite people's knees or whatever, the objective has been achieved.

Fascinating discussion! Seems to me there are no easy answers and maybe it's just easier not to stay with people who parent in a different style to your own. If you prefer an indulgent style of upbringing,and only visit families who think the same way, both sets of parents should be able to relax - though admittedly it might end up with each set of parents getting thoroughly teed off with the behaviour of the other set's kids, if not with their own! There probably wouldn't be a problem when both families prefer to set firm boundaries.

Approaches to discipline is one of the topics of some research I am doing into childrearing. See my request for mothers to interview about this on the media/non-member message board. Volunteers would be much appreciated. I will give my contact details to anyone who responds. Thanks.

We just had friends from America staying with their 4 dc for the weekend. The mum is very gentle, indulgent and laid back - I am a gazillion times stricter. They are allowed to wander around eating sarnies, pick up their parents iphones etc whenever they like to play games, no set bedtime blah de blah.

But I have to say, though they have little discipline and are materially spoilt (they are loaded) they were all so sweet natured, friendly, chatty. They were a joy to be around, really free and fun.

Made me think I'm waaaay too uptight on the disclipline front.

No idea what this adds to the debate!

interesting thread. The OP's friends sound like they parent from a place of laziness & fear to me.

I shudder at the thought of a 9 year old having a tantrum over food etc like other posters are describing & would not tolerate being spoken to so badly. Gotta start young. Gotta keep focused. I am giving myself a HUGE pat on the back for each & every time I've sat down on side of road, in car or in the supermarket, waiting for DD(2.5) to go through her tantrum & talk to me/listen to me, rather than feeling too ashamed to deal with her so publically, or bribing her to do what I want. We are far from perfect parents, but we do take the time to deal with the negative behaviour as it rears it's head, and for that I am very proud of OH & me

It's a bit early to tell how things are going to turn out when your dd is 2.5.

Are you saying 'we should take the time to deal with negative behaviour' by sitting 2 hours in the car waiting for tantrum to finish? In this heat?

Not sure what this will add to the debate but its worth considering:

Been for walk along coast and for icecream tonite with ds 5, and friend and her dd's 4 and 6. On walk theres a tap and ds said he wanted to wash a cut in it - I said not that water its dirty but took him over the road to loos. Told him NOT to turn tap on. walked 100 meters but ice cream hut closed. DS said oh dear mummy thats not good is it and the 2 dd's started shouting whining very liudly/ turned round and came back to go for ice cream at cafe ds ran to tap turned it on and sat under it for a drink. OK not the end of the world but I had said he wasn't turning it on so told him he could not have an ice cream for not listening.

As we continued walking ds ran across field generally letting off steam and dd 6 said is ds not allowed ice cream. I said no because he didn't listen.
to whuch she replied ' my mummy always says your not having things when I'm naughty but its ok as she always lets us have it when we get to the shop as I shout at her for being unfair!!!' (funny thing is is its true)Conversation continued about behaviour etc and I got a great insight into her views on it

anyhow ds then began responding well to me and really polite and when we got to cafe dd 6 said she would have the same ice ream as ds (3 times). As ds said calmly everytime I'm not allowed one as I didn't listen to my mummy I let him have one for a reward for being so grown up and sensible.

Anyway think the point I'm trying to make is that dcs KNOW when they can do what they like as there are no consequences and giving into dcs is ok if you think they understand what the consequence was for NOT because you don't have the balls to follow it through.

Inmyprime: ah, don't be put off.

mumbar: I think your son is a very clever chap!

Sitting back here from the lofty heights of having Very Elderly Children, I can report the following:

Nearly everyone turned out just fine. Regardless of parenting style. However, the more rigidly parented children did tend to break free a tad earlier and a tad more freely. Mainly, it often seemed, to piss their parents off.

Almost all the fussy eaters who were horrendously pandered grew out of it eventually. Or at least before they left school. Certainly I don't know any of my dcs friends still surviving on Heinz spaghetti hoops and luncheon meat cut into cubes or salad cream and cheese sandwiches cut into triangles. Only.

Even those who most resembled pigs at a trough can now cope with cutlery and basic table manners.

None of them jump on the sofa, scribble on the walls, open the bean bags to release the little white balls everywhere, put plastic soldiers down the lavatory or hit and bite at random. Unless in the privacy of their own homes.

So actually, all does tend to come out in the wash.

Does anyone else read this thread thinking:
"I don't know any well-educated people who over-indulge their offspring and let them run wild.
Oh wait then, it must be me."

The thing that struck me is a lot of the examples are about kids misbehaving when visiting -- kids do act up in new and creative ways in new situations; and parents get laxer when they perceive themselves to be on holiday. So I can't help but wonder if a lot of what's being described isn't situational.

My ds would have you all gutting and shaking your heads. He's nearly 5 and has loud screaming tantrums, hits me often and is fussy with food, poor at sharing etc. He has recently been diagnosed with aspergers.
Of course I deal with it when he does it and I am quite firm with certain things but I have learnt to pock my battles or we would constantly be at loggerheads.
It's easy to discipline him at home but not so easy when out and about. A couple of weeks ago he threw a wobbly when I was getting him and his brother on a bus. He was hitting me over and over. Several people gave me a 'look' and one old man made a comment but what could I do? I told ds firmly and calmly 'do not hit' each and every time he hit me. I won't smack him.
He is very slowly getting easier as he gets older. His 2.5 year old brother is angelic most of the time.

lljkk - that annoys me as well - pretty much the only time our extended family/ILs/friends see the dcs is when we are on holiday together/down at theirs ostensibly on holiday etc and thats when I do like to let them stay up late/have icecreams run a bit wilder of course -they dont see them getting ready really well for the school run most some mornings...gah

Gloriasmut thanks for the wisest words today

And Felix, quite. You have no idea what's going on with other people's dcs. Good luck with your son now you have a diagnosis

druzhock - he's certainly clever enough to know if he'd continued behaving badly or made a huge fuss over not getting it he wouldn't have!!! I'm consistant tho always removed priviledges for bad behaviour and they've returned for good. If he makes a fuss he gets a lecture on how he chose to ignore me and making better choices!!!!

The point I was trying to make (i think ) is that those who are good and those whoes misbehave do so knowing the consequences (or lack of) so know what they can get away with and what they can't.

eg - if a child knows that by ignoring their parent they will get what they want in the end why would they stop??? and vice versa if they know that getting what they want requires manners and goos behaviour they will do this too.

As I said pages previously me and friend are (were )polar opposites in parenting styles but we have learnt from each other and she is starting NOT to accept undesirable behaviour and i've learnt to chill at times!!!

I for one do not begin to think I'm the perfect parent - I have he pita at school ds - but I try my best and accept all parents do. The only times I've got cross at others parenting is when their child has physically hurt ds and they've made excuses for their dc - I do think hurting another person should be disiplined even if you chose to ignore evrything else. BUT that is just MY view.

I don't think it's just your view: I think it's a given, or should be! I stopped seeing one woman because she let her child hit everyone else's.

Fel1x - you are assuming that none of 6our^ children have behavioral problems, and it's not true. As long as I can see that some action is being attempted to correct antisocial behavior, I judge not lest I be judged.

Yeah its the hitting etc that gets me.

Children ds' age (5) do wind each other up and I want to teach ds not to retaliate or to deal with it nicely as in life there will always be people who rub you up the wrong way!!!

I'm also from the camp who thinks if a child hits, winds up another a (very) loud well done dc for not relaliating works wonders. (especially if the child has tried to do it on the sly!!!)

My parenting is a well balanced mixture of the post-war austerity if the 50s (without rationing) and Victoriana without the paid help.

I'm sure all children turn out okay in the end but why do dome parents make it so difficult for themselves AND their children? Children love a few well thought out rules. They feel tremendously stressed and scared they think they are in charge.

Druzhok my point exactly!

I've also stopped seeing a 'friend' cos she doesn't stop her DS from hitting mine (and everyone else's).

That's why I keep saying (ad nauseam...) that stopping physical obnoxiousness should be on EVERYONE's parenting radar.

(And, FWIW I have a severely mentally disabled brother, who carried on having toddler tantrums until he was about 16; I've had to physically restrain him to stop him from biting himself... I KNOW how hard it is to put up with stares from other people when you're in the middle of disciplining your wildly misbehaving child - I had LOTS of practice with it with DB, but you really do have to!)

Gloria loved your post! How old are your DC now? Would some of us count as 'very elderly' - I am 32?!

Well I have an eleven year old exhange student with me at the moment who is being just horrid. Not apparently homesick, but doing exactly what he likes, refusing to get washed, refusing meals and only eating sweets, refusing to help like the other kids, bedroom a tip even by my DS1's standards, telling me I am making him depressed if I ask him to eat his food - he's apparently pissing off his exchange partner something rotten too, which is sad (they share a room).

The thing that worries me the most is that it is clear to me this child has some kind of clinical malnutrition as he's the thinnest child I have ever seen in Western Europe in my life, and so pale he looks like a ghost. He just looks all wrong. We know his family as my DS has stayed with them a couple of times, and they look normal on the photos, as does his sister. Not a squeak on his form about this. What the hell do you do? Tell the parents they are failing to feed their son?

GloriaSmut, it may all come out in the wash but why on earth do you want to let them learn everything from their own mistakes? I actually am not sure why any parent would impose no controls of their children's behaviour, obviously though it depends on the parents values as to what they consider important. If parents fail to impose controls in relation to how their children relate to others then it probably says a lot about the parents.

fel1x - i agree with colditz your WERE doing something about it.