to be unsure if I should report friend to SS?

[custardismyhamster]

Friend is 23, has dyspraxia (and other things I think as have read up on dyspraxia and it's just difficulties with co-ordination if I'm right, so she may not run as well as others etc)

She has a DD, 8 months.

Her DD is not cared for very well and I am worried. Whenever I visit her DD is passed to me and I end up caring for her. If I don't, she gets ignored-so today she was sat on floor playing with a toy, she fell and banged her head (was fine!) and cried so I left it for a few minutes, my friend ignored her so I picked her up, cuddled her, then distracted with funny faces-her DD laughed and forgot about her fall bless her.

Anyway the little girl doesn't seem to ever be properly clean (not as in oh she has baby food on her clothes-she is a baby they get messy! but as in she stinks-literally after clean nappy on etc, her hair FEELS greasy and she smells. She also has terrible exema and cream from gp, friend doesnt put it on her as 'makes my hands feel greasy')

She is also never spoken to, or interacted with by my friend, at least not when I am there.

Friend never seems to buy her anything she needs-had no cot until about 7 months old etc, but yet can afford pauls boutique bags and mac makeup for herself...hmm.

AND friend told me today that to make money (she doesn't work, but lives at home with her mother, who does work and she isn't paying any board even) that she is sleeping with men for money-in her house, in front of her DD.

This has worried me and I feel it's the final straw-should I now as a concerned onlooker be speaking to social services or similar, as am concerned about little girls welfare?

Any advice really appreciated guys as don't know what to do for the best but don't want little girl to suffer

Roffle at Rollmops, "not all are the brightest crayons"

The worst parent I ever encountered at dd's school was an awful racist ignorant horrible bully who caused the school and teachers no end of problems.

She had eight children running wild, the young teen dd's pregnant, house filthy and chaotic beyond belief. The five year old told her to fuck right off when she asked her to stop hitting my dd.

She has been involved in stand-up violent rows at the school gate.

And is now a social worker.

How do I know whether your individual cases should have been referred to SWs?

I don't know you, nor your family, I can only see what you have written here.
I don't know if you are an honest person or a liar, or if you are missing out parts of the story to paint yourself in a better light. Or if you have persuaded yourself that things happened a certain way to make yourself feel better, when really they happened a slightly different way?

How do I know you aren't a 14 year old boy passing the time?

How can I possibly pass judgement on your cases? Why would it matter to you anyway, what I said? I am not a social worker and I have no idea of the ins and outs of the procedures they have to follow, or what the people who referred you thought.

Of course people should have reasonable grounds before they refer. I never said otherwise.

According to the Dyspraxia Foundation dyspraxia literally comes from two Greek Words "dys" meaning ill or abnormal and "praxis" which means doing. This is a negative and self-fulfilling label that implies that we are not capable of taking action! The name of the group " Greater Manchester Dyspraxia Adult's Action! Challenges this negative notion!
According to the work of Paulo Freire's work on critical awareness which empowers groups of oppressed people to become actively involved, break through apathy and develop skills in problem solving.
? It is only when the oppressed find the oppressor out and become involved in the organised struggle for thier liberation that they begin to believe in themselves. This discovery cannot be purely intellectual but must involve action; nor can it be limited to mere activism, but must include serious reflection: only then will it be praxis."

There are two types of dyspraxia, which are quite different. Developmental dyspraxia and acquired dyspraxia. Developmental dyspraxia is when someone is born with dyspraxia and acquired dyspraxia can be caused by a stroke or head injury and causes much more severe disabilities. This website is about the former type of dyspraxia, which includes difficulties with co-ordination, spatial awareness, perception, language and short term memory.
Developmental dyspraxia affects between ten to Seven percent of the population and up to thre percent in varying degrees of severity. Many adults remain undiagnosed and can be lost in the mental health, prison and probationary services.

A person with dyspraxia may also have other specific learning differences such as developmental speech and language differences and may result in a combination of dyslexia and co-ordinaton difficulties. Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD or ADHD) and hyperactivity are often associated with dyspraxia as well as Asperger's Syndrome and communication disorders. These overlapping disabilities are known as "neuro-derversity.? We refer those who do not live with these differences as Neuro-Typical or N.T.s click here for more information on N.D.

Professor Amanda Kirby believes that 90% of dyspraxics have an overlap with other forms of ND.

Other terms for Dyspraxia.
Developmental co-ordination disorder (DCD). Motor learning difficulties. Motor dysfunction Disorder of attention, motor control and perception (DAMP), Non Verbal Learning Difficulties (NVLD)

The terms 'Clumsy Child Syndrome' and 'Minimal Brain Damage' are now discouraged. Unfortunately some people including professionals do not understand what you mean unless the former insulting label is used. All labels used suggest the medical model of disability and not the everyday problems the person faces from the barriers society cause us to suffer from. Such as social exclusion unemployment, underachievement in education and low self-esteem.

If you would like support and discussion with other adult's living with dyspraxia both nationaly and internationaly go to

[email protected]

thats NOT what you said Jenbot. you said before, along the lines of, better safe than sorry. now you're totally backtracking.

noodle, have you mis-posted ?

Jenbot is like a politician. slimey and doesn't answer the question. and when she is pinned down to a specific question, that really requires a simple answer, like yes or no, she goes off on a tangent. trivilasing it, by saying, oh how can i have an opinion. maybe you're a 14 yr old boy.
pathetic. you had lots of opinions before. but not now.
vunerable, i've been bullied. oh its not fair. oh woe is you.
oh all weak and mild. oh poor you.
you very very outspoken and sure of yourself before.
not so , now eh ?

came back and started scrolling through what i missed.

then i decided that actually no, there is no point trying to argue the pro's and con's of the actions taken in individual cases. i don't have the full facts, just the side of the aggreived. it is also true that i simply cannot answer for someone else.

what i can say is that in all cases where you feel a child is at risk of neglect or abuse or that you feel the parent is putting that child at risk, you should contact social services in my opinion.

I can also state that given the information the OP has, yes i think this is a reasonable case for a refferal.

I am sorry that you have had a bad experience oblomov, ISNT, and anyone else who has felt they have been traumatised by SS involvment. I am a social worker by profession and whilst i will defend my profession i cannot be spokeperson for every decision a sw has ever made.

No, Oblomov, I believe the noodlemakers explanation on dyspraxia was sorely needed, as the first line of OP was: " Friend is 23, has dyspraxia (and other things I think as have read up on dyspraxia and it's just difficulties with co-ordination if I'm right, so she may not run as well as others etc)..."

I said "I think it's worth some innocent parents being inconvenienced, and upset, by the investigation of unfounded accusations if it saves the occasional child from a life of misery, or even death."

And you, Oblomov, said that "It is Jenbots view that I argue against. I can not express to her how wrong her view is. Many of us have tried. But it is pointless."

Which I thought was a teensy bit mental to be honest, because you appear to be arguing that it is worse for some people to be upset and inconvenienced for a time than for a child to actually possibly die.

That's why I continued to argue my point, I really still don't think what I said was too weird.

alt did you see my question? Does a minor injury such as my dd sustained absolutely have to be referred? Because the hospital said so, the social worker said so and you have said so. If so that is fine, good.

But nothing in the criteria I found supports such spurious grounds, it has to be an actual allegation of abuse not merely procedure.

milady - Any injuries to the genitals of a small child would be grounds for a refferal to social services.
Im sure it will sound like an over reaction in your case but as has been explained, we don;t just deal with lovely innocent people who tell the truth. sometimes people lie to Dr's.

police have to reffer anyone who has called the police for domestic violence id there are children in the house. it wouldn't matter if the children were upstairs, heard nothing and the man was arrested charged and thrown in jail there and then never to see the family again. it IS procedure. and for every person that it is an over reaction for there will be 3 that do need that intervention.

Jenbot: I'm very, very glad to hear that you are not a social worker. I'd be even gladder to be sure you don't work in local government or the NHS either. Because the attitude you seem to be displaying, which appears to be pure New Labour toxicity, ie everyone is a feral vicious moron who needs to be taught how to live by the Government, regularly inspected and judged, and constantly under threat of having their lives turned upside down and their DC taken away, is just the sort of attitude that is doing so much damage to so many lives here.
Unfortunatley a percentage of social workers, care workers, mental health professionals and those who seek election to public office, are BULLIES AND PSYCHOS. They get off on their own authority, on having power over other people, whether it's the mental health nurse who knows he can sexually abuse patients as they are 'mad' and their accusations won't be believed, or the ignorant little tit of a social worker fresh out of college, who loves being able to order older women to clean their houses more often and dress their children in 'normal' clothing, these people are not interested in helping others but in feeding off them.

As I mentioned in my first post (appreciate not everybody has the time to read the whole thread) I'm not a Social Worker but do work in the Child Protection field.

I hope the OP comes back at some point to let us know the outcome.

It is understandable that this thread has become a debate about Social Work intervention - it is a highly emotive subject.

There are many things wrong with the Social Work system at present but there is a big Reform Programme happening - some of that has come about from recommendations of
Serious Case Reviews such as Baby P.

I can only speak for the Authority I work for and it is true that there is a high number of "professional" referrals that do not meet the criteria for Social Work intervention. My Authority has actively set up a system where SS feed back to the Professional Agencies why it was felt these referrals did not meet the threshold and possibly suggest other support Agencies for the family. It is hoped that this will allow SWs to concentrate fully on those that do need intervention. Hopefully some posters can take reassurance from the fact that this is happening.

Changes are happening nationally to improve things - not just for the public but for the SWs themselves who are buckling under the pressure - but it will all take time. In the meantime though, we've got what we've got and we still need to try our best to keep children safe which needs everybody's co-operation.

Thanks for that post jazzchickens.

This part "My Authority has actively set up a system where SS feed back to the Professional Agencies why it was felt these referrals did not meet the threshold and possibly suggest other support Agencies for the family." is great news and exactly the sort of thing I would hope to see happening.

solidgoldbrass - bring it on!
I have been following the way this thread has een going and I am horrified!

Jenbot - I said "I think it's worth some innocent parents being inconvenienced, and upset, by the investigation of unfounded accusations if it saves the occasional child from a life of misery, or even death."

And you, Oblomov, said that "It is Jenbots view that I argue against. I can not express to her how wrong her view is. Many of us have tried. But it is pointless."

Which I thought was a teensy bit mental to be honest, because you appear to be arguing that it is worse for some people to be upset and inconvenienced for a time than for a child to actually possibly die.

That's why I continued to argue my point, I really still don't think what I said was too weird.

don't put words in my mouth Jenbot. i never said it was o.k. for a child to die. but your argument is not logical. investigating a child, when the parents are innocent , doesn't save that child does it. because thta child was never in any jepody. becasuse thta child's parents were innocent. and so how is investigating thta child , how does thta bera any relation to investigating a different child. a child who might indeed be in danger.

one is not related to the other.
once agin, ts not the sw'ers investigating thta is the proble. it is refering to the sw'er in the first place, on spurious grounds thta is th problem.

Okay, who has been investigated on spurious grounds who is still happy with the current system?

jazzchickens thank you for your post. Glad things are changing for the better.

Thanks for the clarification too, Gigantor.

'Ladies and Gentlemen we are floating in space', perhaps we ought to anchor ourselves and refresh upon what the OP custardismyhamster has raised and stated in his/her original posting, as follows;
Firstly,
AM I BEING UNREASONABLE to be unsure if I should report friend to SS? , immediately, I am intrigued, simply because I cannot imagine having any freind whomsoever, who may have established a degree of concern over the welfare of my 8 month child without having raised those concerns directly and firstly with myself and above all, having tried to ssist to ensure my ability to cope before going to the extremity of making a report to an authority.
So I read the OP's argument.
Straight away I am confronted with the statement: Friend is 23, has dyspraxia (and other things I think as have read up on dyspraxia and it's just difficulties with co-ordination if I'm right, so she may not run as well as others etc
Lets face it, what custardismyhamster is doing here is making a very frightening assertion: friend is disabled, so materially is an unfit mother!
If I'm wrong about what you have tried to insinuate custardismyhamster, then please explain why you have made this comment part of your argument to justify your intention to report YOUR VULNERABLE FRIEND to an authority of any kind?

So I read on and examine the following:

Her DD is not cared for very well and I am worried. Whenever I visit her DD is passed to me and I end up caring for her. If I don't, she gets ignored-so today she was sat on floor playing with a toy, she fell and banged her head (was fine!) and cried so I left it for a few minutes, my friend ignored her so I picked her up, cuddled her, then distracted with funny faces-her DD laughed and forgot about her fall bless her

Ladies and Gentlemen are we still floating in space? The only thing that concerns me here is the assertion of OP's statement that DD is not cared for very well and I am worried, when the incidences he/she outlines to justify her concern is over a circumstance where the mother appears not only to be distracted by the company of her so called friend, but also of the understanding that this so called friend / OP is watching over the DD.

And in anycase, an 8 month baby learns to crawl and then walk, through learning balance, which arguable means learning through degree of falling! Check out Penelope Leach!

Lets face it, by this stage, I am not entirely convinced by OP's motives, more so I am feeling deeply sorry for a young mother on her own with an 8 month DD, without any support of well meaning freinds behind her, so I read on......

Anyway the little girl doesn't seem to ever be properly clean (not as in oh she has baby food on her clothes-she is a baby they get messy! but as in she stinks-literally after clean nappy on etc, her hair FEELS greasy and she smells. She also has terrible exema and cream from gp, friend doesnt put it on her as 'makes my hands feel greasy')

My son, who is now 17, was wrongly diagnosed with eczema as a baby, he was later diagnosed with psoriasis which requires the antithesis of eczama treatments.

But the good news here, is that said DD is being taken to the doctor.

My challenge to OP is her interpretation of friend doesnt put it on her as 'makes my hands feel greasy' Has this comment been selectively taken out of context? Ladies and Gentlemen, I ask this because I'm not trusting this OP so far.

Hey, I know this is a long post, but please follow me here, I've the second part of OP's original post to respond to, and there we get on to some real issues, none of which I've seen addressed as yet....I'll get

back later

Well of course the innocent people shouldn't be reported or investigated. We should just look into our magical future-seeing boxes to see which people they are if we are concerned about their families.

Problem solved.

A child appears uncared for and the mother is working as a prostitute. FFS - that's alright with some people is it?

All the OP was doing was showing concern. She wasn't implying abuse WAS happening. Her reporting it will only mean that someone will decide whether to make an assessment of her needs - or not.

There is talk on here about how social workers make assumptions, well I have certainly seen some tenuous assumptions in some of the posts. Noodlemaker - you are correct there may be perfectly reasonable explanations for some of the issues.....however there may not be and who are you to judge that?

Baby P - taken to doctor with bruises, didn't bother examining him so missed the pulled out fingernails, broken ribs etc. The hospital consultant who didn't bother to check the child protection register, or didn't think a 'cranky' child should be examined. The social workers who took at face value all the excuses the family came up with.

Victoria Climbie - dragged round various housing offices during the day with her aunt, no one thought to question why she wasn't at school. If they had followed this up she may have been saved from kidney failure, near starvation and the 50 plus injuries on her body.

That is 2 high profile cases - there are loads more. Without communication between professional bodies, more kids will be at risk. Sometimes the concerns shared are without foundation and don't require investigation or intervention. Sometimes the info you get is part of a wider picture, a jigsaw of information that means there are grounds to look into a case.

All organisations that come into contact with children have a duty to protect children and will have their own procedures. They do not make assessments as to whether someone is at risk or not - social workers do that.

The anti-social work ranting on here is really unhelpful. More kids are missed than parents upset by social services becoming involved.

All of the people on here who think they have the knowledge to place the OP's friend's behaviour into context and judge the child - not at risk........amazing. It is not your job to do this.

Sorry some have had bad experiences but inevitablly there will be situations like that when a system has to be rigorously applied.