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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not teach my DS any English

702 replies

DewinDoeth · 07/06/2010 20:34

Ok, moved from another thread as it seems to have got people going!

DS is two and speaks quite a lot, but only in Welsh.

I live in a Welsh-speaking community, I'm a native speaker and Welsh is my first language (in fact I'm a lecturer in Welsh lang&lit), my entire family are Welsh. DS attends a Welsh medium nursery 2 days a week, and is cared for by my mother 2 days a week. And me the other days! None of the carers speak English with him.
My DH has learnt Welsh to near-fluency, and only speaks Welsh with DS: it gives DH a chance to improve (slowly, with an nonjudgmental speaker ) and has given him a massive confidence boost when it comes to it.
I am not teaching DS any English at all, and I never speak English with him. DS will learn English quite naturally, mainly from the television, or from hearing it around when there are people who don't speak Welsh. It's how it was with me and my English is of a very high standard (no doubt there will be grammatical errors in this post now - but I have an Oxbridge PhD so it can't be all bad).

PILs are not Welsh, live 250 miles away, and have expressed sadness that 'they can't communicate with him'.
They learnt to say hello and thank you in Nepalese when they went on holiday, but despite knowing me for 10 years and my family for 6, they have never learnt any words of Welsh at all, not please or thank you, and say it's pointless because it's a dead language, and it's not an useful language.

OP posts:
Rockbird · 07/06/2010 21:11

I do think you're being unfair to your PIL tbh. They are not Welsh and your DS is half English so by not making any effort to teach him English it is a bit of a two fingers up at them. Saying they could learn Welsh is not good enough and a bit arrogant. The way you are setting it up, they won't be able to have a conversation with him for a few years yet and that's very sad.

Other than that YANBU. I see my mother struggle to speak Irish because she wasn't taught it properly so it's good that there is such a large number of native Welsh speakers.

JaynieB · 07/06/2010 21:12

Whilst your PIL aren't being terribly enlightened, I think you are maybe being a bit unkind to them by not also teaching your son some English too so he can communicate with his grandparents. He will miss out on that too.

JackBauerIsGoneForever · 07/06/2010 21:13

I think YANBU, spoken as an English mother in Wales, it will be so easily picked up.

WRT the PIL's could you doa webcam thing and have them help him learn english? If when you visit they talk to him in english they will understand.
I could control a class of 4 yo spanish children in an english class without speaking spanish to them!

I think it might be an English reaction though, DD1 is not in a Welsh school but they are still teaching bits (numbers, songs, colours etc) just through play. A lot of my English friends (and family) make 'jokes' about how they hope she isn't going to turn 'all welsh'

DewinDoeth · 07/06/2010 21:13

But puppy, why would/should I want that? What I meant was that speaking English to my child doesn't come naturally; I don't communicate to children in English and find it hard. Same with cats and dogs - always Welsh!
Speaking English is no problem whatsoever for me - that's bilingualism for you. I dream in English if I'm dreaming about English friends.

So, first, I'm not excluding him and I'm not trying to stop DS speaking English.

Secondly, he will learn English, probably quite soon (he already says 'bye bye' and 'no' sensibly, and 'all day long' (from Wheels on the bus) quite randomly), and it won't be 'learning', just absorption.
This is true of all children who only hear Welsh at home; they all become fully bilingual. This includes children with learning disabilities (with some exceptions, obviously), children with Down's (I know one bilingual boy who has Down's), and, er, children who just aren't very bright (probably un-pc there, sorry) and ones who don't have an 'ear for languages'.

Omni good point about political issues - I bet if I said I was an Italian living in Italy and only speaking Italian to my DS who will be going to an Italian school etc etc it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Onto DH - well, his Welsh is good, very good, and it's improving very, very fast. (Thanks to DS.) He has got a high-profile job in Wales because he had started to learn Welsh, and needs to keep learning. DH is not denying his background - born a Sais, will die a Sais, and supports England in all sporting events; but wants to understand the culture and background his son will be growing up in; and DH is being extreme in taking more than a casual interest in it! He was worried at first, that DS wouldn't speak English as well as he does, but has been reassured that he will. And he said it felt odd to start with - the aim was that he would try to speak Welsh when possible with DS, but it's funny, speaking to babies is a different register somehow - DH now can't speak to babies in English... (he wasn't exposed to babies or children before).

I should also add: DH and I speak to each other in English unless it's a basic level conversation 'did you put the laundry on and has it finished' etc; switching the language between the two of us will be a big step. So DS hears that, although strangely seems to largely ignore it.

DH also works away during the week so introducing English only on weekends could have been more problematic than DH improving his second language.

Finally, I have the best child psychologist specializing in bilingualism and language acquisition living next door... She says DS is bang on average, nothing special, and there will be no way of telling, once he starts school, whether he was brought up Welsh only/half and half/English only in his early years.

OP posts:
FlookCrow · 07/06/2010 21:14

personally, I think that's a bit strange. No English at all? And we harp on about families/individuals in the UK moving here and not speaking any English! :D

I am a bit jealous though, my family is Welsh (mother moved to London before I was born) and I was made to attend a welsh school for a year.. was useless as I couldn't use the language and had no welsh speakers to speak it to.

DewinDoeth · 07/06/2010 21:15

Can I clear up 2 stupid points:

DH 'not exposed to babies or children' sounds rather bizarre. Nothing creepy about that! I just meant he didn't know any, didn't spend any time with any.

Secondly: Welsh only/half and half/English only - scrap English only, it will be obvious because he can speak Welsh. Duh.

OP posts:
LetThereBeRock · 07/06/2010 21:15

The 'Italian' living in Italy' situation doesn't compare to yours,it's quite different unless the Italian in question has a partner whose native language isn't Italian.

Lotkinsgonecurly · 07/06/2010 21:16

Dewin- 'He will learn it, it's just that I'm not going to speak in my second language with him as it doesn't come naturally'

Following on from what you said in an earlier post, I think its great what you are doing with the welsh, giving him a firm footing in that language so he's happy and confident using as his mother tongue but if you don't feel happy with your second language why would you want him to feel the same.

I was brought up speaking French / English at the same time and feel completely confident in both. Neither has the upper hand.

DewinDoeth · 07/06/2010 21:18

Everyone - MrsGravy on p. 2.

OP posts:
DreamsInBinary · 07/06/2010 21:18

FlookCrow - "personally, I think that's a bit strange. No English at all? And we harp on about families/individuals in the UK moving here and not speaking any English! :D"

I can't tell if you are serious or not.

biscuitsandbandages · 07/06/2010 21:18

my 2 yr old DS is spoken to exclusively in English except by his german speaking grandmother who only ever speaks german to him. He understands her perfectly and adores her. I don't speak a word of german, I keep starting to try but working fulltime and then having children I haven't managed yet.

Why can't your PIL speak to him in English and you continue in Welsh?

wannaBe · 07/06/2010 21:18

"it's just that I'm not going to speak in my second language with him as it doesn't come naturally." But your dh is speaking to your ds in his second language and presumably that doesn't come naturally either. Even more so given he'll have only learned the language in the past few years.

If you were both welsh speakers (or any language for that matter actually) then of course your ds speaking just the one language wouldn't be considered an issue. But you are bringing him up with just one language, and therefore denying his other main language, plus denying him a comfortable relationship with his grandparents where they can cmmunicate with each other.

Please and thank you etc just wouldn't be good enough tbh, your ds has two main languages, welsh and English, and I think that yabu for denying that.

DewinDoeth · 07/06/2010 21:19

No, I do feel happy in my second language - we might have x-posted there, I hadn't made it clear enough.

OP posts:
BessieBoots · 07/06/2010 21:19

Everything that helyg and DewinDoeth said...

I am Welsh, our household is Welsh. We never speak any other language at home. DS1, 4 years old, is fluent in Welsh and English. His English came only a few months after his Welsh.

skihorse · 07/06/2010 21:19

Flook - she is speaking an official UK language with him - I don't see your point.

helyg - we must've been there at the same time given your age (I went as a mature student) - I left in 99. I spent my time in The Bay.

Booboobedoo · 07/06/2010 21:19

I would be doing the same as the Op in that situation.

I think you need to be Welsh/have lived in Wales to really understand tbh. (Really not trying to be patronising - apologies if I come across as such).

My grandfather was from the R.S. Thomas generation who were beaten if they tried to speak Welsh at school (and some at home).

I went to Bangor University, and my Grandpa was very worried I was going to turn into a nationalist.

He was right to be worried, because I did!

Those of you who say he will be at a disadvantage not speaking English: I just don't see any earthly way that could happen.

I also agree that your PIL should try to learn a few words of Welsh.

I miss living in Wales.

frakkit · 07/06/2010 21:19

I sort of understand why but I do agree that parents/carers should speak their native language to children. If you have 2 'native' languages then obviously you have a nice choice to make. I really do applaud your efforts in keeping Welsh alive - to my great sorry I've lost all I acquired from living in Wales as a child and 2 years of WME. That said I doubt I will speak to my children in French because I'm not a native speaker, I'm familiar with the studies detailing the impact of non-native speakers on children's linguistic development and I don't want to pass on bad grammatical habits/a slightly Swiss accent!

I see your PILS point of view too. It would be like me refusing to speak English to my (as yet not conceived) children to protect their French and totally cutting out my parents, who don't speak it and would love to pass on nursery rhymes etc.

Being bilingual you've probably forgotten, or possibly never known, how impenetrable a household which communicates entirely in a different language is so it's no shock to me that your PILs are feeling excluded. They are right to want to communicate with your DS in English. To speak Welsh, even if they could, would be completely unnatural.

So yes, actually, YABU IMO andi would say that whether it was English, Spanish, Farsi or Swahili you were deliberately not teaching your DS even though you have the opportunity because you're cutting him off from his family. It's perfectly possible for your DH to speak English (OPOL) and Welsh to be your family language. I know he'll learn it eventually but it's tge relationship with his grandparents now that's important.

BessieBoots · 07/06/2010 21:21

BTW, I'm wondering if I know DewinDoeth in rl... Paid a deud os ti'm isho, ond wnest ti fy ebostio i 'chydig fisoedd yn ol am effaith y cynulliad ar fy nofelau???

OrmRenewed · 07/06/2010 21:22

Why don't either of you speak Welsh to him? I don't understand that. Children are little sponges when it comes to languages - he could cope with learning both. Is it a point of principle?

Rockbird · 07/06/2010 21:22

Good post frakkit.

Booboobedoo · 07/06/2010 21:23

Flook: the Op doesn't live in England, as is not English.

It's that kind of casual assumption of superiority which makes people fight so fiercely to keep the Welsh language alive.

Missus84 · 07/06/2010 21:24

Surely the GPs can speak English to him, and he'll pick it up from them.

Within 2 or 3 years he'll be bilingual anyway and it won't be an issue. In the meantime the GPs can still have a relationship with a toddler even if they speak different languages - small children are quite happy to make friends with people who don't speak the same language as them.

frakkit · 07/06/2010 21:24

Okay was writing that while you posted your family language is predominantly English.

YANBU then, unless you totally avoid speaking English around DS rather than just directly to him.

wahwah · 07/06/2010 21:25

Yanbu. My parents didn't speak any English until they went to ( welsh ) schools. They are both approaching their 80s and speak perfect English- now their Welsh isn't as great as it used to be.

Sadly, they internalised the negative attitudes towards the language and didn't teach me Welsh, so being raised in England I was completely disconnected linguistically from my extended family. I went to evening classes until work / family made it too difficult, but I applaud what the Welsh people on this thread are doing to keep it alive and relevant in this century.

OrmRenewed · 07/06/2010 21:25

Sorry 'English' not Welsh!