to eradicate the words 'chavvy' and 'common' from the MN lexicon

[OrmRenewed]

They are lazy words. They mean 'anything that I don't like and am not'. If you dislike something enough to issue a sweeping and insulting comment about it, have the decency to give accurate and precise reasons for it.

MorrisZapp - but we have to agree what the words mean. Otherwise it's all noise and no signal.

"As quite a posh middle-class and possibly 'Rah' (when younger) person myself I don't find those offensive."

It was meant ironically. Colditz mentioned them - I was just pointing out that as someone who might be defined by others as those things, I don't find them offensive.

I am rather struck by how everyone leaps to defend their right to be snobs - how dare anyone suggest it isn't a desirable thing

"When I grew up we had 'casuals' (a bit naff and preppy but very smart) but it was a form of dress."

As is chav

Difference is, Non U applies to about 98% of us. So its a term that can unite us rather than divide us.

Coalition, no everybody does not have to agree what the words mean at all!

For some, the word will mean 'poor', for others it will mean 'anti social, thuggish' etc, and for others all it refers to is a manner of dress.

I don't think it's at all snobby to observe the humans around us and comment on how they look and behave. It would be a sad day when we didn't notice life's rich tapestry imo.

If it's ok to jokingly say rah becuase it doesn't cause you yourself personal offence, then how can it not be ok to apply other words to other types of people?

Snobbery comes from all directions. I was labelled as all sorts when I was a kid, for being articulate, doing my homework etc, by kids who thought I was lesser then them (ie they were tough and cool, I wasn't.)

Why is it so much less offensive to attack and label people who might be seen as higher up some kind of social ladder then to label and attack those who might be further down it? A snob is just somebody who thinks they're better then somebody else, and many of the kids who thought they were better than me at school would fit the common usage of 'chav', not that we had that word then.

Orm, I thought the U stood for 'us', too but had an inkling that I was wrong.

"A snob is just somebody who thinks they're better then somebody else, and many of the kids who thought they were better than me at school would fit the common usage of 'chav', not that we had that word then. "

Well all that proves is the stupidity of snobbery doesn't it. And it's subjectivity. and what is labelling someone as 'common' but exactly that?

"I don't think it's at all snobby to observe the humans around us and comment on how they look and behave" Yes comment if you wish, but don't assume that you are better than them.

MorrisZapp - yes they do otherwise you are not communicating you are just talking. How do I know when you use the word 'chav' is you are referring to a person in burberry cap or a dole scrounging, theiving binge drinking scumbag? The meanings are clearly quite different and one is going to be more offensive than the other to the person to whom it is applied.

This doesn't mean words can't have different and shaded meanings - just that we need to be careful with them. 'Punk' can mean person with a mohican, Steve Albini, or the man who takes the passive role in gay sex in prison.

What about if I am better then them though?

I was caught in some extremely unpleasant scenes a few weeks ago in a Glasgow train station after a football match. One bunch of neds (we don't say chav in Scotland) attacking another, with obscene words, saliva and physical violence, to the terror of children and adults alike standing nearby.

I am better than that, and I don't apologise for saying so.

A very kind lady helped me to get out of the melee and safely onto a train. The lady was wearing big hoop earrings, gold jewellery etc and was the absolute model of public mindedness. I wouldn't dream of calling her a ned. But she used the word herself about the idiots causing the trouble, and imo she was right to.

She is better than them.

Well I would call them thugs, oiks, any negative word you can think of. But the word 'common' is more often than not applied to clothes, hairstyles, house decor, food, upbringing of children, choice of dogs FFS.... none of which are going to hurt anyone else, And that is pure unadulerated snobbery of the worst kind.

we dont really say chav here in Scotlnd its more Ned for a certain type of teenger who are mostly causing trouble drinking, shouting and swearing im sorry but they are neds short and sweet

I think Ned is a more specific term to be honest.

I'm a goth, I know full well what reputation goths have. And my punk friends know what reputation punks have. So I'd assume chavs know what reputation chavs have. So if you don't want to be tarred with the same brush you have two choices.

• Don't dress like it.
• Dress like it but make a special effort to act contrary to it - though this is a long, and in most cases, impossible scenario.

Knowingly dressing in such a way that identifies you with a certain group of people and then complaining when you get compared to them is daft.

It is not an insult - unless you take it that way. For example, I am a woman. In most cases being called a woman is not offensive, some people though will say it like it is an insult. Banning the word itself would be bizarre.

Nobody would say a baby name is gothy tho or punky ...chavvy seems to be the buzz word on the baby name threads

What reputation do Goths and Punks have then? I wouldn't really ascribe any traits beyond liking a particular type of music to either of those groups.

Don't take away "chav", I've just got used to using it! (we don't say chav in America). I get the feeling it's sort of like our "redneck" here...used derogatively by some, proudly owned by others, descriptive as hell in any case.

Exactly kaloki. I'm a blonde (yay get me) and to some that makes me the butt of a joke. It's also just a colour of hair. It can be used either way.

Surely the nuance comes from context, and also your audience.

I wouldn't crack blonde jokes or say ned in front of people I didn't know well enough to know they understood me and would not take my meaning offensively.

We can't just abandon words becuase some people use them in a certain way. But we can be careful how we use language, and be ready to defend our words if we need to.

usualsuspect Really, so if I suggested Morticia or Eldritch as a name you wouldn't think "goth"?

coalition So never heard of goths being depressed and miserable? Or punks being violent?

Kaloki - But they aren't. Well, you can get some bruises in the mosh pit.

Goths = miserable sods who mope around all day being miserable

Punks = violent anarchist gobbers

How can anyone say there isn't a reputation attached to being a punk? It was a movement FGS. Anarchy, remember?

As for goths - certainly people think they are miserable doom-mongerers. This is of course utterly incorrect, in the main, but there you go.

I am amazed that you have never heard of the reputations of different groups of people. Whether the reputations are well earned / still valid etc is quite another question.

Whereas your chavs, which is a fashion thing for me as for kaloki, are generally perceived as being pretty cheerful.

So that's all good.

I think it's only clueless old ladies who are scared of goths Most people who haven't been living in a bubble for the last 20 years tend to know that Goths are peaceable, sensitive, intelligent types. They'd be happy to let the clean-cut smartly dressed football hooligan/lager lout with a knive in his pocket and a broken beer bottle in his hand in for a cup of tea, though.

I personally don't think Chav status is about what you wear at all, although most of them are easy to spot because they do tend to wear a 'uniform'. The phrase has been hijacked I suppose, to denote anyone with a penchant for overtly branded sportswear, or showy blingy finery. But that's not what it's about at all - that's just a byproduct. Many people have very chav appearances,(depending on what that means to you) but no chav characteristics. And I suppose I should say visa-versa, for the sake of fairness, but I think that applies to a lesser degree.

Anarchists like the LA property developer John Lydon?

"Kaloki - But they aren't. "

Aren't they? Some are.