to not want a male worker to take my daughter to the toilet?

[DebiDean]

Hi there,

My daughter wet herself in the nursery toilets yesterday, when I asked her about it at dinner she mentioned that it was a male worker who took her to the toilet. I spoke to a few friends about it who had different opinions about whether it was right or wrong (opinion was a 50/50 split!) and I decided that as I wasn't comfortable with the idea that I would contact the nursery and explain that I would rather a female worker take her to the toilet.

I was very clear with the nursery that I was supportive of having male role models within the nursery however I felt that to maintain my daughters dignity it would be more appropriate for a female worker to take her to the toilet.

I had a rather rude reply accusing me of being discriminative and that they would refuse to discriminate against him.

I was so shocked as I do support men working with children, but felt there should be limitations within that, or the nursery should at least consider my wishes (especially as it costs me £45 a day!!!).

Whats the opinion? Any ideas of what I could/should do?

I doubt very much that a nursery worker of either sex is watching the dc on the loo. They are just in the room presumably for safety reasons of some kind or to check that they wash their hands, flush - hygienic reasons.

Don't really know what the reason for it is tbh

OP has said her nursery has no cubicles and no doors you can close. There is no privacy in there for a child going to the loo whether directly observed or not, it seems to be an open plan arrangement.

No, Been, I do not think that childcare is women's work. Traditionally it has always been but I see no reason why it has to be. However you cannot look after little children without expecting parents to raise concerns they have, however odd they may seem to others, parents are very concerned about their small children. That's the way it is, everyone working with children knows that and has a fair bit to put up with in that respect I should think

I think we should insist that children are only looked after by staff of the same sex. This will lead to a massive increase in wages for nursery workers as wages are raised in order to attract enough men into the job. Of course a load of women will get made redundant but thems the breaks. I'm sure we will all be happy to pay the increased child care costs. Demand for male nannies will go through the ROOF too! Think of all the familes with childen of more than one gender who will need an extra nanny!

YABsoU I don't know where to begin. Luckily, everyone else seems to have covered it.

Read whole thread and agree that the fact that the 4 yr old child is so uncomfortable with having to go to the toilet accompanied by a "stranger" who just happens to be male (according to the OP)that she wets her pants is truly odd.

To don my devil's advocate hat, if I were the male nursery worker I'd be wondering what went on in the child's family to make her so petrified of men tbh. My daughter is now 6, still totally unaware of any part of her body being anything other than just a bit of her. The OP has clearly projected the whole sexuality/modesty thing onto her child which is a crying shame. Couldn't you have preserved her innocence for a bit longer?

I also think that Debi is going to be set up for a lifetime of disappointments re her PFB. We already know that the nursery she chose was chosen because close friends work there (so presumably PFB could be spoilt carefully looked after) etc etc. Tiggyd's opinion might not be popular, but I bet he's bloody right. The staff hide under their desks when they see certain parents come huffing and puffing up the drive with their self-righteous banner flying high.

I appreciate what Riven is saying- her dd is older, and although unable to communicate it, obviously much more aware of her own body - fair enough.

I'd prefer a woman sticking her finger up my nethers, lawks, who wouldn't- but apart from DeFluffy's type of loon-doctor I feel more sorry than anything for any male doctor having to get up close and personal to my saggy, revolting 45 yr old fanjo.

I wish you luck OP, luck, vast, industrial quantities of cotton wool, and a thicker skin if you're going to hang around. (you and your alter ego Gichin) (am guessing you share a computer as well as a POV?)

Rivens case is a bit different.
But OP YABU.
And I don't mean to pick her out, becasue she is nott he only one, but DeFluffy's post : "I know I'm being unreasonable, but I still wouldn't like it. I just don't, not sure I can put it into words. Probably is about dignity, my dd is 5 though. Is also probably about the sexual abuse worry, and although I know that that's silly, I still feel it.

Therefore, imo YANBU."
DeFluffy's post and the OP's has to be challeneged.
"I know it's 'wrong' and 'discriminatory' and all of that"
yes it is. that why we can't just say, o.k. you have a different view , thats o.k.
Its not o.k. It is wrong and thus needs to be addressed.
And thta isn't a falming. its just saying thta if people hold views that are not justifiable, we, all, have to question them.

I think you are being unreasonable

My primary school had no doors on the toilets we used until age 6, it's not scarred me for life. The crappy 'tracing paper' toilet paper was far worse than the lack of doors

Gobsmackedmetal:

Yes, I'd flame the prudish, paranoid people you mention, regardless of cultural differences. I'm not one to discriminate, you see.

I'm assuming a certain irony there Snobear, but still interested in whether other posters believe, say, a South Asian woman in her 90's who wants to be tended to by a female nurse could be reasonably told she's warped, sick, outrageous, sad etc on the basis of her cultural beliefs and how/why this differs from someone who has been affected by abuse (presumably by a male) preferring for a non-male worker to tend to their child?

FWIW I agree with the OP. Yes it's blatantly discriminatory and unfair but I still agree.

Sex offenders and child sex offenders are predominantly male and a few (?) men in positions of authority have ruined it for many.

Unfortunately it's a risk you take when you have other people look after your children.

If there is women there who could do the job it's not an unreasonable request IMHO. Especially if you are paying for the privilege.

Women taking boys to the toilet is completely different. If the male/female ratio of child sex predators was equal then it could be argued more understandably.

The worker in question having passed 'tests' to qualify for the position really only tells you that he doesn't have any previous convictions for offences against children, it doesn't tell you he is not that way inclined.

Yes, I've had my own issues in the past related to inappropriate behaviour by an adult male in a position of authority and you can say my view is skewed but I prefer to think of it as a preventative measure for my child.

Yeah, so the guy is probably fine but I would prefer my children to be dealt with by a woman in respect to toileting, showering etc unless I know the man in question and it would only ever be their Dad, relative etc.

And yes, that is not guaranteed safe either. It is basically a protective measure and I can't believe so many women on here completely disagree with the OP.

The thread is so long I haven't read the whole thing but will do so now.

mrsbean78 - It's not about the parent's needs though it's about the child's needs.

mrsbean78 - What about a South Asian woman in her 90's who doesn't wants to be tended to by a black nurse on the basis of her cultural beliefs?

I think if you have a preference for who cares for your child you need to find a nursery that is all female. The employer cannot discriminate against their staff due to gender and in accommodating your request this is what they are doing. More men are needed in child care and attitudes like yours need challenging quite frankly.

mrsbean78 Wed 26-May-10 09:57:17
"I'm assuming a certain irony there Snobear, but still interested in whether other posters believe, say, a South Asian woman in her 90's who wants to be tended to by a female nurse could be reasonably told she's warped, sick, outrageous, sad etc on the basis of her cultural beliefs and how/why this differs from someone who has been affected by abuse (presumably by a male) preferring for a non-male worker to tend to their child"

Because whatever has happened to you in life, you have no right to project that on your child. They will have their own share of misery and hang-ups, they don't need the parent's. If the child had been abused and was consequently afraid of men, that would be a different matter. But letting a child grow up frightened of men (which carries risks of its own) because you are frightened of men is not actually right.

but not everyone who has been abused by a male will then feel that their child needs to be protected from men.

I certainly don't. In fact I feel the opposite. I want DD to be comfortable and confident around men and boys and not worried or vulnerable to things that, when she is older, feel secret or shameful.
Shame is one of the reasons children don't speak up about abuse - and one ofthe longest lasting negative effects.

If I had started insisting that DD be taken to the loo only by women at under 5 age, I would hope that very understanding DH would say
'well that is understandable but it is about your fear and not about DDs safety or well being. So lets get you some help for that shall we'

Coalition, in that instance my response would be "accept the services of the nurse, whatever her colour, or fuck off"

zero tolerance on racism

"you can say my view is skewed but I prefer to think of it as a preventative measure for my child"
Jamiki, I think it is skewed and i do not see it as reasonable to consider it a 'necessary' or reasonable' preventitive measure.

TheFatOwlOfTheRemove - Exactly. And sexism too.

Hmm.. I can see this to an extent, but within the context of this individual's personal moral/cultural/ethical framework, a male worker tending to a female child's toileting is felt to be inappropriate. She is the consumer in said setting, she doesn't want it, it's not going to hold the male nursery worker back in his career so what, really, is the issue here?

She has bent over backwards to say that it is not because she sees all men as predators (although I suspect that, given that she mentions the history of abuse, that there may be an element of this statement being in response to the flaming).

As I said, I really, really doubt that many of the South Asian community I work with would be okay with a man bringing a small child to the toilet in a care or educational setting. I'd love to know for certain.. but I can't imagine any of the nurseries/schools I work in being so stern with any parents who would raise this issue on the cultural grounds.

GPs and other HCPs in our Trust offer chaperones for all appointments that female clients have with male professionals on request.

What Cory said. It's about the child not about the parent.

Jamiki as has been stated on this, and many other threads ad nauseum, the vast majority of sexual abuse is within the family, so I do hope you don't let your female children sit on Grandad's knee or anything.

Jamiki You do know that the majority of sex offenders working in nurseries have been women?

So you have no problem with women taking boys to the toilet still?

"mrsbean78 - What about a South Asian woman in her 90's who doesn't wants to be tended to by a black nurse on the basis of her cultural beliefs? "

Interestingly, there is a zero tolerance on this in our trust.. but the sex-specific thing is a bit different, I guess, and is why it is subject to the Genuine Occupation Qualifications legislation in terms of employment law.

I don't think there is an exact correlation between racism and sexism, because I don't think the OP's qualms have anything to do with sexism. I don't think it's about trying to put men down or disempower them on the basis of their sex, which a request to have a worker of another colour or creed would be with reference to race. I think it's a recognition that women sometimes genuinely feel more vulnerable in the presence of a male in care situations and by extension, feel that maybe their children are more vulnerable also.

If concerns are voiced then management needs to reassure parents or put further safeguards in place not prevent the guy from doing what he is paid to do.

Also like Bucharest said abuse from strangers is rare it is normally a family friend/member which does the crime so if you have problems with a male nursery worker taking your daughter to the toilet do you have greater problem with allowing your male family members to take her since technically there is more danger there....