to wonder who Oliver James is? working mothers look away!

[Chulita]

Here Sorry if there's a thread on it already, I just read this and was a bit

Onestop If OJ was objectively choosing research, I would believe him more. He has a big agenda which is to right the perceived wrongs of his own upbringing (which sounds v. haphazard). I heard him talking about this topic and nurseries on the radio a while ago and he came across as very emotional, which to me shows he cannot be objective on this issue. He chooses the bits of research that fits in with his theory. For instance, he quotes evidence of those evacuated in the war and said that those removed from families between the ages of 4 and 6 were much more likely to suffer mental health problems in later life. OK. But then he quotes it as research that is relevant to putting your child in daycare

The thing that bugs me about this whole debate is that 1:1 care was just not possible in the days before contraception when families numbered 10 or more children. In those days, they relied on immediate and extended family as well as the wider community for bringing up children. For me, good daycare is not so far off that model.

I'm annoyed with The Guardian for giving him a regular column. If it was in an opinion section, fine, but it's not - it spoils my enjoyment of my favourite section of the newspaper.

It's pop psychology and journalism. I think that probably a lot of children are born to people who don't nececarily want them, or are too troubled to look after them properly. It's fairly grindingly obvious that an unwanted child may become a troubled adult, and there have been a lot of studies covering child abuse. This is not the same as ordinary people doing ordinary things. The behaviour we learn as children becomes the norm, and for better or worse, we will quite likely end up doing the same sort of thing, unless things are so terrible that we need to spend the time and effort loostening the knots.

I think that OJ rants on more about himself than the broader view. I find this very arrogant and rather unpleasant.

My son has adhd - I was very chilled third trimester. Fxxxxxing idiot.

I thought there was research on maternal stress
as a factor, not the cause. Again, dismissing OJ as a 'twunt' doesn't get us any closer to looking at what factors impact negatively on children's development and what promotes positive and resilience. Th fact that we don't like what's being said doesn't mean that there might not be some truth or value to it.

Sexist nobbery. Glad he's able to make money while working out his own ishoos.

And I am actually agreeing with Xenia!

not read all the thread yet, but WidowWadman makes a v good point on page 3 of this, why aren't our prisions full of twins and people with less than 3 years gap between them and their sibling(s)? Unless it's a big pile of bollocks.

marantha im pretty convinced that you are in fact OJ.

However, I will indulge you.

First of all, the fact you beleive you know that it is better for mother to stay at home with children can only point to the fact that you are in fact a bit daft.

No intelligent person claims that an opinion that they hold is 100% correct without any evidence.

Also with regards to childcare workers not being able to provide the same level of love for children... this is probably true. However, please explain to me why it is necessary for a child to be in the presence of someone who adores them to the extent that their mother does 24 hours a day?

How any woman could agree that another woman's role should be defined by the fact she is a mother is absolutely abhorrent to me.

You asked as well that every working mother should admit 'I dont give a shit about the truth because Im selfish and only think of myself' or similar.

How about 'I dont give a shit about the truth because im comfy here in my little bubble with no work pressure, access to someone elses earnings and the smug knowledge that I am in fact a better woman than any of you lot'

All I know is I will, never be on a thread on here about how my husbands left me and Ive no where to live and no way of supporting my children...

foureleven Ever heard of the word, "generally"? It means that, in the main, a child is better off being looked after by a loving mother all day than a disinterested young girl on minimum wage who has about 300 other kids to take care of.
Please tell me why this view is so offensive to you. I don't get it.

I am not saying that a woman should NEVER work when she becomes a mother, but if a child is loved enough AND finances permit, what the heck is wrong with her staying home for a few years to look after her child? (Note, "a few years" not forever).

You are the daft one, you do not realise that I agree with you that financial considerations are reason for a mother to work when children are young- which seems to be the thrust of your last sentence.

You seem to have a fear of abandonment, by the way.

I do understand that you agree financial considerations are a reason for mums to work. My point is that you never know what the future holds and so even though theree is no immediate financial need for me to work.. I do so to make sure that I will always be secure financialy should there be no one else around to support DD.

What is offensive to me is that you suggest a woman is selfish for making the choice to go to work... whilst it is fine for men to make the same choice. That is sexism.

Of course you are right when you say "It means that, in the main, a child is better off being looked after by a loving mother all day than a disinterested young girl"

But we're not talking about disinterested young girls are we...? We're talking about sensible women, putting their children in a childcare setting while they work. I dont know anyone who has left their child with a disinterested young girl...

Well, foureleven. Daft as I may be, I have fully accepted that men and women are different and life is not fair.

Now don't get me wrong, if a man and woman are equally qualified for a job then it should be a toss of a coin that decides whether they get the job. BUT I will not deny that women are (generally speaking, of course) better at childcare while men are better at going out to work to support them (generally speaking again).

No amount of bleating of "it's not fair" and calls of "sexism!!" will change these differences. Sorry, but they won't.

Fear of abandonment...? Umm... Did I imagine the recession last year? During which time around 10 men that I know being made redundant.. oh and the lone parents and relationship threads on this website... oh and the small fact that men can die in their 20s, 30s, 40s...

Anyway, must dash, my pet dog and step dog need help with their homework. And the cashcow needs his shirt ironing.

I have fully accepted that men and women are different HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA

Good luck with your oppressed life. If you would ever like to taste freedom from sexual stereotyping please let me know. I can point you in the direction of many studies which will disprove what you have 'accepted'

I dont claim that is is wrong or right to stay at home with your babies or work or whatever, each to their own but I will never ever accept that you should make that choice based on your sex.

Still laughing.

Effjy is right. If he does refer to evacuation in war time or indeed Bowlby looking all those years ago about children in orphanages that is a very wrong analogy. What you would need to compare is your average child with two loving parents at home and your average child at home with a nanny and two loving parent and your average child at home with a father or mother and get rid of all variables and compare the differences.

Women are not better at doing childcare. They are just mug enough to take it on. Most though work and most din't tolerate sexist set ups at home which say because someone has a pensi means he can't scrub floors or change nappies.

I know it was a typo but lovin 'Pensi' as new word for Penis.

P.s my DP and ex DP have much more patience with the childcare than me marantha

foureleven I really, really do not understand what you are on about now, really I don't. I have already said that if a woman has to work when children are young owing to FINANCIAL circumstances (such as the recession) that is fine by me. How many more times must I say so?

It does amuse me, though, for twice now you have mentioned the possibility of abandonment by a spouse/partner. Good to see that you trust your other half so much...

You seem to be saying, "My other half may abandon me at some point in the future therefore, I must work now" That is NOT a sign of complete trust.

There is nothing unwholesome about a man earning money while a woman looks after their child and home- it is called a marriage: a relationship where each party provides for the family IN THEIR OWN way. The contributions do not have to be the same.

foureleven it is obvious to me that you have issues of trust with your other half- discuss it with him for your own sake.

And, these equal- but DIFFERENT- contributions are recognised IF a married couple divorce by the courts. So I don't quite know what you're on about.

I find it very hard to believe that the decision whether or not to go back to work and for how many hours per week isn't thought about by families before it is made and the best possible available alternative put in place so to that extent to the whole debate.

However, Marantha, people who could afford to give up work for a few years to raise their children would not necessarily be able to work again in the same field or indeed readily find a job at all.

I am a lawyer in a specialist area of law. I have a couple of close friends who decided to become SAHMs. Their children are now at school and they are looking to go back. One has been able to find some unpaid temping to try and get some relevant experience again - her previous 8 years are not treated as relevant by employers after a 4.5 year break. The other friend hasn't got that far. Both now wish they'd gone back part time even when their children were small.

I think couples should work out their own arrangements, but obviously you are vulnerable if you take a career break and are effectively paid by your spouse.

I work in a nursery, my child goes to nursery and did from 4 months, im expecting my second and they will go to nursery as well. Being a nursery worker I think kids being in nursery is fantastic.

I get to see all the things the children get to do there and the experiences they have and they love every minute. I dont understand why people get funny about childcare at all.

What i am saying is that you never know when financial difficulties may come up so it seems to me a sensible ieda to have my own career and finances.

Yes you are right i have serious trust and abandonment issues which i will raise with my partner immediately on the say so of the women who beleives that her lifes choices are mapped out by the fact that she has a vagina.

Sunshine, you are one of tje few nursery workers I have heard of sending a baby to nursery. All the nursery managers I know would not put new babies in group care- I wonder what this says about their workplaces...