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to wonder who Oliver James is? working mothers look away!

510 replies

Chulita · 22/05/2010 12:06

Here Sorry if there's a thread on it already, I just read this and was a bit

OP posts:
AvrilHeytch · 27/05/2010 14:36

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GetOrfMoiLand · 27/05/2010 14:38

PMSL at Xenia being called a random internet sprite.

GetOrfMoiLand · 27/05/2010 14:39

Anyway, plenty of people on this thread calling working mothers selfish etc, why not get a pet, so I think Xenia redressed the balance somewhat towards those who spend their days ironing Cath Kidston tea towels etc.

AvrilHeytch · 27/05/2010 14:42

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sethstarkaddersmum · 27/05/2010 15:39

he has fans?

sethstarkaddersmum · 27/05/2010 15:42

I'm a bit worried tbh. My cortisol levels have been rising steadily since hearing him on Woman's Hour and thinking about it some more.
Now, my dcs (including a baby) are currently at nursery being cared for by lovely calm people who give them their full attention and don't get steamed up about things like I do. When the poor things are forced to leave this Eden and come back home to their frankly slightly random mummy, should I breastfeed the baby or not? Can cortisol go through to breastmilk?

Songbird · 27/05/2010 15:46
Grin
elkiedee · 27/05/2010 16:14

Re 1:1 care under 3, what about those of us who have 2 or more under 3?

sethstarkaddersmum · 27/05/2010 16:21

we've fucked 'em up Elkiedee - we need to face it. Not that he's saying it's our fault you understand! He keeps on saying he's not saying that.

Xenia · 27/05/2010 17:17

Yes, he has a tendency to rub peopleup the wrong way. I'm not aganist some of his views - I liked a daily nanny and mym babies at home although not with me. I listen and talk and know them and never do stupid naughty step stuff. I think the suggestion if you work you can't do these things right is very very wrong. He works and presumably thinks he's a good parent. If his views have been wrongly misrepresented in the Times he needs to get that corrected.

His suggestion that being a working persona as man or woman precludes you from being a good parent is rubbish. The skills we have as workers often translate and most of us are good human beings who are good with children. My suggestion working mothers are much better with children than housewives is clearly correct but I doubt Woman's hour would call me on to tell them why that is so adn I don't have a book to sell on that subject although I've written far more books than James but then I'm female so obviously I'm much better than he would be at just about anything.

HistoryStudent · 27/05/2010 18:44

I'm not a mum, but a young woman just finished uni facing the realities of the recession generation and coping with these realities by daily doses of woman's hour.... I suggest Oliver James should take a running jump in to a pit of sharp things.

Who is he to tell women how to be mothers? Has he experienced the difficulties facing working women and motherhood? How often does he really spend with his toddlers? Most importantly does he have a uterus? I think not... and therefore I find his opinions rather redundant. As a product of 90s parenting, a time I think we will all agree the war on mums seemed to kick off, I am surrounded by friends who had single working mothers and those who had stay at home mums, and we are all happy successful individuals. Unlike Oliver James who seems to have a serious complex. As far as I am concerned as long as your child is safe, happy (overall) and loved you are doing a fantastic job.

Xenia · 27/05/2010 22:52

He certainly does himself no favours by a lot of what he says but controversy sells books. The basic message that children need to be loved and cared for is not wrong but the emphasis on women as if children didn't have fathers which seems to come out no matter how hard he protests sexual neutrality and the media suggestions that it is women who work who cause the problem don't help at all.

The issue of how to make children feel secured and loved is improtant but not dependent on parents not working. Children do not turn out better psychologically if parents don't work and indeed plenty benefit from having working parents.

Perhaps we need an alternative book on how damaged children are if a parent stays home.... mmmm that might be fun to write. I could do 50,000 words of housewife bashing.

Lily has never seen a mother work. Mummy wears a pinny and serves daddy. When daddy's cross mummy tries to smile because if daddy left mummy woudl have no money so mummy has to be very nice to daddy. When lily grows up she will have a big big wedding and 2 children and learn how to iron like mummy does. Lily's friend's mummy words but daddy and mummy say she is neglected and it's not a property family. Lily will never let that happen in her family. Mummies don't work.

GardenPath · 28/05/2010 00:23

No one has ever seen a mother work - mothers don't work - the faeries do it, Xenia, as you know.

And, thanks for the offer, but I don't think your usual bash-the-SAHM-fest would be constructive.

Xenia · 28/05/2010 09:12

Might sell books though or encourage more women to seek positions of power and thus benefit their daughters and lead to happier women and families all round.

Bonsoir · 28/05/2010 09:16

I wonder what world you live in Xenia, where all these high-powered women are happier with happier children. Certainly not where I live! I seem to know plenty of really happy families with SAHMs or mothers who work PT, and lots of families falling apart in multiple ways where the mother has a high-powered career.

elportodelgato · 28/05/2010 10:03

bonsoir I think one of the points Xenia is making is that OJ (and IME every media report on the subject ever) focusses exclusively on working MOTHERS and not working PARENTS.

I don't really care what he says about children needing 1:1 care with a primary caregiver up to the age of 3, that's fine by me if that's what the research shows is best (what I do with my own child is none of his business TBH ).

What I don't understand is the assumption that this caregiver must be the mother, that therefore mothers who work are 'bad' and 'failing' at their 'primary function' which is 'being a mother'

My DD is 2, as I said earlier in the thread, and as I am no longer breastfeeding her, there is no earthly reason why I am a better caregiver for her than my DH.

No one ever ever asks my DH 'how do you cope combining work and family?'. Men are expected to work fulltime, it is not questioned at all, in fact, a father who doesn't work fulltime is considered something of a rarity and / or letting down his family. Since I went back to work fulltime, I have been asked the 'how do you juggle it?' question on an almost weekly basis, simply because I am a woman.

There was some research published a few weeks ago, don't know if you saw it. It showed that actually the woman working in a family did not lead to family breakdown - the factor which DID was when that woman was expected to also run the house, the kids, the cooking, the cleaning as well as hold down the fulltime job. Families where domestic duties are equally split between the man and the woman do not suffer the rates of breakdown you suggest.

I refuse to be the one who stays home running the house and family in order to facilitate my DH being able to work. not only can't we afford it, we would both hate it. I think we should both be able to do both things - we share the breadwinning and we share the domestic duties. It works absolutely fine and I hope gives my DD the message that men and women can be equal, a pretty important thing for her to understand.

As an aside, I do think these issues will start to disappear when men start to demand that they have more input into family life, demanding the chance to work flexibly, demanding the opportunity to raise their own children.

I am geniunely interested who on this thread would say that a mother is uniquely the best person to raise her children up to the age of 3 and that a father cannot also do this role?

Bonsoir · 28/05/2010 10:06

I was talking to a friend yesterday who runs EMBA courses. The course that used, 10 years ago, to be about Work-Life Balance is now called You Can't Have It All...

elportodelgato · 28/05/2010 10:11

Yes, DH and I do joke that I 'Have It All' (hard-working solvent handsome husband, stimulating career, lovely home, beautiful well-behaved child and another on the way, supportive family, wonderful friends, enough money to do whatever I want) - surely according to the Daily Mail I should be due some kind of massive dramatic BREAKDOWN in the next year?! Because, you know, I CAN'T HAVE IT ALL can I?! how dare I even try!

Well, actually, I can. My husband also 'Has It All' and he is no more due a breakdown than I am. But then, he's not a neanderthal who thinks I should be his slave around the house as well as holding down my job. We manage absolutely fine, is that so hard to believe? And most of my friends do the same.

GetOrfMoiLand · 28/05/2010 10:18

I don't see why women flagellate themselves and are so sure that you can't have it all.

Why not? What is so hard about having a FT career, a supportive partner, nice home life, friends, happy children etc. The only thing I have trouble fitting in is time to go to the gym (good).

Bonsoir · 28/05/2010 10:21

If you haven't got time to look after your health you certainly haven't got it all, though.

elportodelgato · 28/05/2010 10:26

Oh no GOML, you don't manage to go to the gym as much as you'd like - according to bonsoir that means you've spectacularly FAILED.

Congrats on your lovely job, partner, home, friends and family btw, I assume you, like me, are also not feeling a Daily Mail style breakdown coming on?

GetOrfMoiLand · 28/05/2010 10:32

I can live without going to the gym a lot

Doesn't mean I am neglecting my health. I have just got a new job and walk there and back - I used to commute and hour each way every day, so have actually gained some time.

I wouldn't be as smug as to say i had a perfect life, but I also don;t think it is reasonable to say 'women - know your place' and pronounce that it is impossible to 'have it all'. Because that is patently not the case.

GetOrfMoiLand · 28/05/2010 10:33

Novice - no, funnily enough I don't feel the pressure of feeling that I am Daily mail woman of shame

Mind you, I used to be a teenage single mother years ago, so perhaps I am used to being considered the scourge of the earth.

SimonCowellIsSatan · 28/05/2010 10:55

Jamie Oliver is a fat-lipped cockerny twat that's who he is! I'll show you Turkey Twizzlers you self righteous bellend!!!

Oh...hang on...James Oliver....no idea who he is.

elportodelgato · 28/05/2010 10:59

GOML - teenage single mother! wow, the Daily Mail hates you, whatever you do!

I agree, I would not say my life is utterly 'perfect' but it's a close as I ever hope to come and I do feel a little bit [smug emoticon] about it tbh!

I await Bonsoir coming to tell us that it's all going to crash around our ears.

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