to think it was a mistake to give a damn about education?

[AbbyLubber]

Ok, I know some will really disagree about this, but I am fed up. Really furious. I earn a solid, not great wage; so too dh. We have two children. We've scrimped and struggled and sweated to pay for them to go to independent schools, because they are both bright and because here in Oxfordshire the local state schools in our area are dreadful, really dreadful. We're almost at the end of our rope financially. My son has a scholarship, but the schools say we earn too much to qualify for a bursary, though they also admit that we don't actually earn enough to pay the fees over the long term.

WTF? AIBU to think that if we don't earn enough to pay the fees then that should BE a benchmark for help? I get that it's political, that they want to keep their charitable status, but surely this is madness? Perhaps I should add that we don't have a fine art collection we can sell, or rich parents... as per the ludicrous inquiry form the school sent around.

Isn't ANYONE else cross that soon unemployed single mums and the rich will be the only ones able to send their dcs to a good school of their choice - unless of course you pay in the other way, by buying a 675k house in the tiny Cherwell catchment area? Not that I'm against unemployed single mums and their kids - the more the merrier - but I wonder now why I worked full-time when my dcs were small to earn a decent wage.

To justify their charitable status, they do things like offer free or subsidised places to those who cannot afford it, or enable their facilities to be used by community groups or whatever.

Personally I'd rather just pay the VAT. It might cost a bit more (or might not because presumably the school would then axe the free and subsidised places) but it'd have the benefit of stopping UQD from banging on about it

Or another thought - why not move to Buckinghamshire which has the grammar system. If your kids are bright they would prob get in to one. Might mean a bigger commute for parents but that's a sacrifice maybe worth making (for the record DP commutes to Oxford from Bucks so it is do-able).

Charities are not all free-for-alls, UnquietDad. Most charities have pretty strict rules governing who can avail themselves of their services. And why should a charity be free at point of access, as you claim? There is no reason at all.

Mamatomany: there's more to private school than university entry. I would not dream of paying fees just for the children to go on to university.

Sakura: yes, I think it's an absolute disgrace.

GetOrf: yes, I do have personal experience of this.

Generally, I just don't get this 'why not just move house/county/country' argument. Moving house isn't quite that straightforward for some people! Buckinghamshire would be, ooh, only about 250 miles for my husband to commute. (And there's no guarantee that you'd get a place at the school of your choice even if you moved catchment area.)

The village after school club I'm about to go and pick dd up from isn't free, and that's a charity.

i went to state school in oxfordshire. my mum was a cleaner. some kids used to bring in gunpowder and blow up desks during the lunch break.
others used to beat the teachers up during lessons, or see how soon they could get a teacher to run from the classroom in tears.
i can see why you'd think it would be impossible to 'succeed'...

i still got a first and a couple of masters.

i do remember asking if i could sit the entrance exam for oxford girls. i got laughed out of town. there was no way on this earth that we could afford it.

my kids are in state, and i'm a governor. i'd still pay for private if we could afford it, which is extremely sad.

Your children are bright. You are an interested and involved parent. Why do you lack confidence in your children so much that they won't be successful? And if they do manage to get that private school education right through to 18, how are you helping them in the long term if they then believe they have only got where they are in life because of you forking out shedloads of cash? What will they do, in their turn, if they can't afford a private education for their children?

Are you sure that all the local state school options are dreadful? There's a lot between a highly selective catchment 675k catchment area and complete awfulness. Why not move somewhere sensibly priced where your children can go to a decent school for free, where (as they are bright) they will be in top sets alongside other bright children?

Your post sums up one of the reasons why private education isn't always the answer. It costs humungous amounts of taxed income, which for many people is unsustainable, or only sustainable by seriously affecting your quality of life, and also it often seems to result in people who lack confidence in any other sort of system, and probably spend their adult life believing they don't have the brains to have been successful on their own merit.

I was thinking about this thread this afternoon, and remembering back to my own childhood and the families I knew in the village I lived in. There was more than one family that sent several children to expensive private schools - in some case, as full boarders - and lived lives devoid of almost all comforts and entertainment as a result - houses that were never redecorated, with antiquated plumbing and no central heating, cast off furniture and clothing etc etc. Quite honestly, when I look at what the children concerned have achieved in later life, I can say hand on heart that the families would have been much better off devoting more money to sensible modern living and less to schooling. I think that the families' choices adversely affected those children's experience of life and they grew up believing in martyrdom and self-sacrifice rather than having a healthy ambition for a comfortable existence.

I have to say, in response to Violethill's post, I have never in all my life met a privately educated person who thinks they only got where they are because of their private education

Hi, everyone. I had to take four hours there to work.

Thanks to all those who offered helpful suggestions. I will definitely check out the west and also Matthew Arnold. I am feeling guilty that i never thought of being a school governor - I'd assumed you had to have children at the school, but whatever we end up doing it seems a really great idea.

Not keen to refute everyone - but I don't have a PARTICULAR sense of entitlement for my own children. sorry it came across like that. What i meant abotu caring too much about education was devoting a disproportionate amo7unt fo money to it. I think EVERYONE should be able to find a good school for their children, IRRESPECTIVE of income. and I do think - and most seem to agree - that it's harder in some ways to find a good fit for a nerdy child, though this doesn't imply that all fee-paying schools will be a good fit - far from it. I was really hoping that the schools I visited would be better than they were. I'd love to visit more. I'd lvoe to help some too, and I'm really grateful for your collective advice about how. I kinda agree that the indy/state divide is leading to lots of ignorance, though I did honestly try to research the options properly.

Xenia, in case you are here - I took a second job last year, but it started making a horlicks of my first job. So I'm probably doomed to be scum...

YABU

The point of private schools is that they are only available to those who can afford it and unfortunately you seem to belong to the large category of people who can't afford it. What is odd is that you thought you could afford it and then found out that you couldn't, and were then suprised that other people weren't going to give you any further financial help bearing in mind that you are already in receipt of some financial assistance paid by others which is seemingly not enough.

This is what people mean when they are posting that you have a misplaced sense of entitlement. Plenty of mothers work full time and do not feel entitled to private education for two children as a result.

What about the majority of kids in oxfordshire and beyond who don't go to private schools?

What financial assistance? Oh, the £300. Yes, I'm humbly grateful, of course. What do you think this btw is for? But don't you see that this ISN'T just my problem?? Bobbalina, did you read anything I wrote after the initial post?

Thanks, Bonsoir. That's exactly the kind of question I was asking myself, hence what people are reading as the over-entitled thread really means just what you say it means. I could rephrase: 'have I put too much energy and money and capital and effort inot schools at the expense of other more general aspects of education'? Or 'have I been wrong about what education is?'

Agree with Bonsoir - I know many people who scrimped and saved to send their children to private schools and I think it was a poor decision for many of them - of my privately educated peers in my village, 2 became small time drug dealers/ long term unemployed, 1 from a convent school was hopelessly naiive about men and got pregnant from a 1 night stand and has really struggled mentally to cope as a single mum, her sister is happily married SAHM, another works in NHS middle management, one is a happy although low paid British Airways clerk and one is a successful FD of a small company. Interestingly the FD was the least academic but had the richest parents.

I would have far rather my parents worked less, spent more time with me and I could have gone to my local school, and money would not have been so tight.

Abby - I haven't read the whole thread, no, it was a bit long

AbbyLubber - I have not read all the thread but I used to live in Oxford and I know exactly the choices you face and can guess exactly which schools your DCs are in and the financial situation. I also know why the boys school is handing out smaller bursaries and I also know that many people are in your situation.

YANBU to want a good education for your children and feel trapped into buying an expensive house in N. Oxford just to get into Cherwell. It is madness and you have my sympathy.

We moved away from Oxford because of the education situation and the insane cost of housing. I can only suggest you do the same.

"Have I put too much energy and money and capital and effort into schools at the expense of other more general aspects of education?" is a very good question

Let's be honest, the problem is not the OP and her slightly skewed perspective on the situation.

The problem is the existence of an education system which benefits those whose parents have the fattest wallet or the best ability to show (or pretend) a level of imaginary-friend-belief. Until these things are sorted out, it won't be fair.

And the problem is that a large swathe of movers and shakers have a vested interest in keeping things exactly how they are, thank you very much, because they it keeps the riff-raff exactly where they want them.

OP - I have LITERALLY no idea what your beef is, tbh. More than 90% of the population don't send their children to private schools - do you think that they ALL don't "give a damn" about education??
anyway tell us about these DREADFUL state schools? Names, please?

YA and YAN BU. And how do the single unemployed mums get their children into an independant school. I do work but if I can do this I'd love to know!!!

Silliness

There is no conspiracy to keep the riff-raff down.

There are just parents who want to do the best they can for their children. Some of those have enough money to afford independent schools. Others have religion which gets them a better education. Others live in grammar school areas so they can get a free academic education. Others subscribe to the state system but take jolly good care to live in a leafy suburb to ensure they get the better state schools ...

All a bit nuts but this is the system we have. Can you really blame parents for trying to do the best they can for their children?

My local state school is rated satisfactory by ofsted. In terms of academics, I think just over 40% got A-C passes at GCSE. It has very little sports provision. Ditto music - no orchestra but it does have a recording studio ?!? Also over 25 of its pupils currently have asbos. No streaming for any subject until Y9.

It seemed profoundly unsatisfactory to me ... I left thinking OMDB.

there are good state schools out there. i find it very depressing on mumsnet that a lot of you dont seem to live near the good state schools we have in our area. i feel really sorry for those of you forced to pay astronomical school fees when good places are there free
[and we dont live in a particularly affluent area]
and personally i dont think sending my child to a private school would have been any good for either of them, but thats just me.

"My son has a scholarship, but the schools say we earn too much to qualify for a bursary, though they also admit that we don't actually earn enough to pay the fees over the long term."

I can understand your frustration, the local state schools you find bad, you cannot increase your income and you cannot continue to pay all the school fees on the income you have. Yes it is true that it is an unfair system in that you earn too much for a bursary yet not enough to pay the fees. It means you fall through the net and there is nothing you can do about it.

However the point with private schools is that essentially the entire system is unfair and I think you are looking for something that the system itself cannot really be expected to provide.

I do feel sorry for you, it sounds like this school is just what you want for your kids but beyond your means. I'm sorry I don't know the answer. Did the school have anything to suggest?

If you are used to scrimping and saving for the fees perhaps you could envisage living on one income? In which case possibly you could look into HE?

when ou registered your second dc at th school, you must have known you could not afford the fees though surely

Has your situation changed?