to think it was a mistake to give a damn about education?

[AbbyLubber]

Ok, I know some will really disagree about this, but I am fed up. Really furious. I earn a solid, not great wage; so too dh. We have two children. We've scrimped and struggled and sweated to pay for them to go to independent schools, because they are both bright and because here in Oxfordshire the local state schools in our area are dreadful, really dreadful. We're almost at the end of our rope financially. My son has a scholarship, but the schools say we earn too much to qualify for a bursary, though they also admit that we don't actually earn enough to pay the fees over the long term.

WTF? AIBU to think that if we don't earn enough to pay the fees then that should BE a benchmark for help? I get that it's political, that they want to keep their charitable status, but surely this is madness? Perhaps I should add that we don't have a fine art collection we can sell, or rich parents... as per the ludicrous inquiry form the school sent around.

Isn't ANYONE else cross that soon unemployed single mums and the rich will be the only ones able to send their dcs to a good school of their choice - unless of course you pay in the other way, by buying a 675k house in the tiny Cherwell catchment area? Not that I'm against unemployed single mums and their kids - the more the merrier - but I wonder now why I worked full-time when my dcs were small to earn a decent wage.

"Unemployed single mums only get their kids onto a bursary if that child is SERIOUSLY gifted.

This is because the people who run independent schools are bright enough to realise that a future brain surgeon could sink without a trace if she's being raised by a thick twat, goes to a shit school and is surrounded by idiots."

colditz are you implying that single mum's who are not in full time employment are thick twats?

I think it depends on where you are. I went to a state primary and then a private secondary school. My children go to the same state primary, which is very good, but I am NOT planning to send them to private secondary unless I feel that, after attendig the state secondary, it is essential. Which I don't think it will be.

I'm not convinced that my private secondary education was really a lot better than the state one my friends got, nor that I wouldn't have done equally well at the local state school (although my parents obviously had their doubts) The main difference, in my eyes, was that the teachers at my private school had fewer discipline problems to deal with, as badly-behaved children could easily be expelled, so could concentrate on teaching. I think more needs to be done in state schools to enable teachers to do just that, then there will be no difference, really. Apart from the "social networking" aspect, which, personally I hate, and have completely shunned.

If I was you, OP, I would concentrate on finding out more about the state schools near you, and spend extra on tutoring etc if you feel your children need it. I'm not entirely convinced, having been there, that the private education route is great value for money. There are still bullies and not-so-good teachers

I do accept that people are free to choose private education for their children, but really it comes down to whether or not you can afford it.

I would like to know how you plan to get your bright kids through uni if you're struggling to pay private school fees at the moment. Your DCs are hardly going to be happy if they get great grades but you can't afford the uni costs. What a waste of money the private school fees would be then!

Gosh is that down to the parents then, silly me I assumed that having paid for all those years of education if they want to go to University they'd pay for it themselves, like I had to .
And if they want to be hairdressers/plumbers/shop assistants they'd still be good ones on the basis of the excellent education they'd received so far. It's not all about buying University places, well not for our family anyway.

Maybe you need to downgrade your housing and school expectations. We have been looking at Oxfordshire schools/ house etc with a view to moving closer to DPs work (in Oxford). I agree that North Oxford is pricey but there are loads of areas which have good schools and cheaper housing around the north of Oxford (Witney, Eynsham, Woodstock etc). They might not be independent standard but they are still good, not sink schools or anything. I went to an independent school in Oxford (parents worked abroad) and we currently live in Bucks which has the grammar system but I would consider moving to north of Oxford and wouldn't worry about the standard of schools (for frame of reference my property expectation would be 3 bedroom house for me and two boys).

If you can't afford it, why not admit defeat and have a look at one of these 'dreadful' state schools? You might be surprised. My local school has a very poor record (which Ofsted has just confirmed) but my son is doing very well there.

There is so more to education than learning facts and figures - learning to get along with all sorts of children from varied backgrounds, getting involved in the local community. A child with supportive parents will usually fulfill their potential wherever they go.

amuminscotland - there are schools that give 100% bursaries plus cover costs/holidays etc. I work in one. Anyone who sits the entrance exam can apply for a bursary if they earn under £38K and there is a sliding scale. YOu don't have to be an unemployed single mother . However your child has to pass the very hard exam and the interview. We don't offer scholarships to bright children of well off parents, just bright children of broke parents. Isn't that the way it should be?

ds 1 has scholarship and bursary and we had a letter from the bursar to say he didn't think it wise to go down the route of making a financial commitment without the means to service it too.

The bursary form we had asked us why we couldn't release any equity in the house in order to help pay. Have you considered upping the mortgage?

Lots of people at our school have grandparents who chip in, ds3 is funded by them as he's not scholarship material and I think they only really consider you for a bursary if you are a particularly high flyer although this is never actually written down anywhere. have you explored this option too?

Failing that if you are determined to stick to an independent look around at the neighbouring schools, are they all charging the same? Cognita schools are generally cheaper because their ethos is a no frills education. no lavish floodlit sports pitches or fancy theatres. the money goes on getting the best teachers.

just a thought anyway.

motheroftwoboys - I'm glad to hear that some schools feel able to do that. In general the bursary schemes I've seen still don't go as far as that.

This has got to be someone taking the p.because 'they are both bright'??????the sense of entitlement in your post is palpable You can't afford it and thats it

I earn just above the national average and will be paying full fees for ds. I don't mind doing this, I could have found him a place at a different school that would have offered him some assistance but we like the one he's going to. I know that some of the fees I pay will be used to subsidise other parents but I think I'd feel annoyed if I was subsidising someone who earned more then I do.

to chocfluffy - I would be surprised if fees at your school went to subsidising bursaries. Ours certainly don't. All bursaries are funded from bursary scheme which is gathered from local companies/benefactors/old boys/will donations etc. The more in the fund the more bursaries we can offer. The parents woudld mad if their fees were used.

If it makes you feel better we are entitled to send DS to our local prep school with an 85% bursary (e.g. we only pay 15% of the fees) and we still can't afford to, so he won't be going.

I'm considering HE, but wandering if my time wouldn't be better spent volunteering at local crappy school/joining governors etc... to try and help make it better.

Thankyou motheroftwo

It's hard choosing Gracie, we've made a few school moves. It's not easy for some.

"Middle class kids with interested parents ALWAYS are (fine)."
Colditz - that's not really true.

Agreed with the others - if you can't afford private schools, then you can't afford it - it really is quite simple. But, if you really do "give a damm about education" the you really do have one major option - moving!

You are right that the state schools in Oxford are not good, but housing is very expensive in Oxford - so move. There are lots of areas in the Thames Valley area that have excellent state schools, and many of them have cheaper house prices than Oxford too. I agree with the others - I trained as a teacher in Oxford, and there really are good and bad state and private schools within Oxford. Private does not necessarily mean better.

So why not look at North of Oxford - Witney, Woodstock, Eynsham - all very good schools and all contain areas where you could easily afford a house, if you already own one in Oxford. Equally, I've heard good things about Matthew Arnold in recent years?

Or move West - Faringdon school is supposed to be on the up, and had a good recent Ofsted, or move into Gloucestershire (just beyond Faringdon) and send your children to Fairford - reputed to be amongst the best state schools in the country.

Or go South - there are some pretty fab schools in and around the Newbury area. I taught there a few years ago, and people were taking children out of private schools to put their children into one of the very successful state schools there. Housing in Newbury is no more expensive than Oxford. Yet success rates for one Newbury school was 80% (5 A-C) and you could buy a 3 bed house in the catchment for under £230k.

So if you really do 'give a damm about education', you do have a choice - move! I've just done that to give my children the best education they can get because I work hard, but can't afford private and the town where I used to live (swindon) had schools that were shockingly bad - even worse than Oxford. So I moved to the Cotswolds. Yes, I've got a smaller house, but I now live in an idyllic location and have the benefits of sending my children to fab schools.

Ay there's the rub

Private schools cost money. Really quite a lot of money. And if you want it but can't afford it, that's really painful.

Xenia will be along soon to tell you to get a second job each.

Me? I think your DCs should go to the local comp and you can use some of the school fees saved to fund private tutors for extra tuition. It won't deliver anything like the same standards (IME you are mostly paying for a peer group that's interested and motivated, sports and music). But there really is no point in bankrupting yourself.

Oh and YABU about the income thing, but suspect you already knew that

My cousins are all from Risinghurst (where houses do not cost 600K) and went to Wheatley Park School. All have university degrees (one from Oxford) and enjoyable careers. YABU.

However much we disagree with the OP, the real issue is that there is a two-tier education system in this country. Well, yes, there are several tiers, but the big split is between paying and non-paying. And until that bis addressed, education in this country will never be equal for all.

Oh I am going to take issue with UQD (again) on the issue of whether or not private schools are run as businesses or not.

There is no generic model for an independent school. There are day schools and boarding schools, girls' schools, boys' schools and mixed, religious (of all types) secular, sporting, academically selective or not, musical etc.

However the vast, vast majority of independent schools are NOT run as businesses. They are not-for-profit organisations. In the absence of a very well-endowed school, the support for fees received by some parents are paid for by the parents of other children who attend the school.

There are a few schools that are run for profit. But not that many and it's an easy matter to find out.

Quattro has summed it up. Yes Xenia will be here soon to say why do you not earn at least £250K? Are you stupid or did you make wrong choices. And also to affirm that crappy state school education is OK for all those poor dim dolts who need to work in public sector etc etc.

Yes UQD I could bang on for many years about the iniquity of the education system in this country. And the automatic assumption that private is better than state. There are several private schools in and around Cheltenham which are notoriously bad, academically, and their only advantage is to educate their pupils in how to wear Jack Wills clothing to best effect. Fine if you are idiotic enough to pay the best part of twenty grand a year for that kind of schooling, but don't act like it is something superior or something to be proud of.

But the point is, if they are not run as businesses, why are they not open to everyone for use like other charities? I could name dozens of charities where you can walk in off the street and avail yourself of their services without needing to pay several thousand pounds in fees to them a year.

But being open to everyone isn't what defines a charity. Presumably the Distressed Gentlefolk's Association wasn't universal in its mandate either

But no Distressed Gentlefolk have to pay for its use, as far as I'm aware.

There are several private schools in and around Cheltenham which are notoriously bad, academically, and their only advantage is to educate their pupils in how to wear Jack Wills clothing to best effect. Fine if you are idiotic enough to pay the best part of twenty grand a year for that kind of schooling, but don't act like it is something superior or something to be proud of.

We have one of those locally and they serve a purpose, the children there would never cope with a mainstream state or private school, often they are children who have been poorly and missed lots of school or else they are just very gentle children who wouldn't/couldn't cope with being one of 120 children in their year.