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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be shocked about the amount of suppo rt a teacher gets when they nearly kill a pupil

349 replies

2shoes · 30/04/2010 08:26

now I know it sounds like the boy was not a good kid, but he was 14, the teacher nearly killed him, yet on here and in the media the teacher has been getting so much support.
yet a boy was nearly killed...........
(prepares to be flamed)

OP posts:
tethersend · 30/04/2010 17:30

"So sure, if we're going to have sympathy for these 'children', then why not for a mentally ill man whose doctor and head obviously found fit he was worthy to come back to work when he honestly was not."

Who says we have to choose which party to have sympathy for? Most people have expressed sympathy for both of the teacher and the student.

It's not an either or situation, and it's unfair of you to set up such a dichotomy, expat.

Original poster
2shoes · 30/04/2010 17:30

mrsbean78 your post to oddette struck a chord with me.
we have been the subject of a hate campaig for the last nearly 4 years. all don by one family. I have to sympathy with that family, I just want them gone, can't really say I would loose sleep if something happened to them, I just want my life back.
so I am sure if the boy in this is really bad there will be people who can't sympathise with him at all...........
but the rest of us, who don't know him/her, shouldn't we at least care.........
hope that makes sense.

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 30/04/2010 17:31

tethers, the difference is, as you admitted yourself, you knew that when you signed up for your job.

people like odette usually don't.

they wind up living around people who behave egregiously through no fault of their own and, usually because they are just as deprived and poverty-striken, have little opportunity to move on.

i think it's mistake to dismiss posts like this out of hand as just odious and horrible because there are a growing number of people who feel this way because of the conditions in which they live or were brought up.

it's a bit like the whole mrs duffy. 'oh, she's jus a bigot,' well, it might have been far wiser to ask her why she felt immigration was a big deal and needed curbed.

expatinscotland · 30/04/2010 17:32

it's unfair in your opinion.

but i don't find it so at all judging from the posts on here.

Original poster
2shoes · 30/04/2010 17:33

we have been the subject of a hate campaig for the last nearly 4 years. all done by one family. I don't have sympathy with that family, I just want them gone, can't really say I would loose sleep if something happened to them, I just want my life back.

missed out a don't in my previous post

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 30/04/2010 17:35

gotta go just now, it's near tea time.

the drug dealer is gone now, he died.

and there wasn't a whole lot of sympathy for his passing around here, and i'm not talking about just us.

it's a block of flas.

tethersend · 30/04/2010 17:38

Fair point, expat, I choose to put up with it.

I think people in odette's situation need to be listened to, but this doesn't extend to agreeing that this boy deserved what he got. odette is right to be angry; I share some of her anger at families such as she describes, but I think she is directing her anger in the wrong place.

bumpsoon · 30/04/2010 17:38

Po , odette clearly has knowledge of the area the boy was from, the boy and his family and whilst the word 'breed' is an unfortunate choice ,you must surely accept that there are plenty of families out there who really couldnt give two hoots about their childrens education and are themselves agressive towards anyone in education . Now there may be factors such as poverty which have a part to play ,but at the same time you cannot say ,living in poverty automatically means you will be a bad parent or have a hopless education. As my mother ( 30 years in primary education) and father (30 years as a police officer ) are very keen on saying 'it might be a reason ,but its not an excuse '
Oh and where the heck did you get the idea that the english dont like children? ive honestly never come across the sentiment in all the years ive had children

Pofacedagain · 30/04/2010 17:45

mmrsceptic, again you have NO IDEA where I have lived or what my experience is. And I do have experience actually, of cars being burned outside my house every night, of broken bottles outside my house, teenagers screaming and swearing abuse as I come home. I don't live there now, but I have lived it thankyou. And my mother grew up in one of the most deprived areas of london - and then went on to teach there with said deprived kids and put up with an awful lot including being kicked in the stomach whilst pregnant. So don't assume too much.

'and where the heck did you get the idea that the english don't like children?' Pretty obvious from the education system really, as Dickens observed so well so long ago.

I can't believe that saying the education system needs to be overhauled and that the most deprived and most aggressive kids need to be given a second chance has been met with such outrage. Shame on the lot of you.

SethStarkaddersMum · 30/04/2010 17:51

rofl @ the idea that you can learn about modern schools by reading Hard Times....

yes my dd's school is just like Gradgrind's

tethersend · 30/04/2010 17:52

I think it's far easier to get angry with deprived and aggressive children than with the systems that ensure they exist, TBH.

mmrsceptic · 30/04/2010 17:55

Er bit strong there I think. Lots of people agree with overhaul. I do. That's why I wouldn't vote Labour this time.

Wrt to yr second point. There is a cost associated with giving the most deprived and most aggressive children a second chance, and it's not financial and it probably won't be paid by you or your children (or mine, come to that).

The heavy cost is the education of other extremely deprived but non-aggressive children and of the sanity of teachers. Shame on me for that if you like, but I believe it most sincerely. Education is the only way out of the circle of deprivation and keeping violent, disobedient, badly brought up children in school ruins that chance for others.

And how exactly does it help them to be included? Not in any way as much as it depletes the chances of others, I'll wager.

mmrsceptic · 30/04/2010 17:56

They've always existed, you said tethers.

sleepingsowell · 30/04/2010 17:59

Pofaced it is interesting - you are talking as if the education system has not and will not have any part in your life - do you have kids? Are they home/private educated?

This thread has reminded me alot that I had forgotten about secondary school! Home education for DS is looking verrrrrrry tempting today

I do have sympathy for all involved here. No winners. I do have sympathy for the children who acted in this cruel inhuman way to a teacher; clearly they have been failed at every turn - the system, parents....I don't believe healthy happy children do what this lot did.

tethersend · 30/04/2010 18:00

And the systems have always ensured that they do, mmrsceptic... I'm not sure what you mean...

Pofacedagain · 30/04/2010 18:01

the attitudes here are startlingly similar actually Seth. And though we have dressed up schools with nice tag lines and taken away corporal punishment, the general approach is still one of repression and control, despite some wonderful visionary teachers.

sterrryerryoh · 30/04/2010 18:03

I teach in a secondary school in Mansfield, and I used to be a police officer in Mansfield. The fates (job offers, and need)conspire to keep sending me back there. But it is not a nice place to live or work, and some of the families and kids that I have dealt with and continue to deal with on a daily basis, often drive me to despair. I have sympathy and an amount of empathy for Peter Harvey, and, from what I've heard, the family of this child are particularly loathsome. But I could never be alright with a child's head being staved in, no matter how much of a shit he was being. Having said that, I'm sure that the school tried to work with that (and other) family on numerous occasions, if they were hard-to-reach or non-engaging parents, and it absolutely does my head in when people maintain that the school/system is to blame, when there are clearly serious issues in student's home lives. Not commenting on this specific case, not knowing the child, but in general. The school system does work, imo, but it needs the support of the community and families it serves.

tethersend · 30/04/2010 18:04

Children don't always kick against repression though, Pofaced- conversely, many of those with behaviour problems know that, thanks to the boundaries, school is a safe environment in which to release their anger.

mmrsceptic · 30/04/2010 18:05

the systems, the systems..

Tethers it's people, people doing this

and lots of people under the same systems, the same deprivation, the same appalling upbringings NOT doing it

no wonder it's like this -- it's no one's fault. Ever.

Pofaced I think you have a very strange idea of what education should be like if you think the general approach is still one of repression and control. You must have quite a perverted view of what goes on in a lot of schools.

Caoimhe · 30/04/2010 18:05

Eh? Surely children should be controlled in school? It's not some mad free-for-all (or at least it shouldn't be)!

Kathyjelly · 30/04/2010 18:06

Yes YABU.

When a classmate openly admits that the class had recognised the teacher's fragile state and had set out quite intentionally to torment him into cracking up, they cannot expect any sympathy whatsoever when exactly that happens.

If anything, the teacher should lodge charges against the pupils responsible, (who are all above the age of legal responsibility) for mental assault and for compensation for loss of earnings.

MerlotPixie · 30/04/2010 18:10

I read that teacher had been off with stress for 5 mths and had seen counsellor during that time. He told counsellor he felt out of control and might hurt someone. Counsellor said he was far too mild mannered actually, and needed to let his aggression out.

seems everything that could go wrong, did.

tethersend · 30/04/2010 18:11

mmrsceptic... did you know which systems I was referring to? Still, if you can give me a reason why NOT ONE of the 100 kids at my school have a stable home life or are far above the poverty line... perhaps it's just co-incidence?

Of course nobody is suggesting that these factors alone produce 'dysfunctional' children- but they are certainly factors, and it would be absurd to ignore that fact.

grapeandlemon · 30/04/2010 18:12

Some of the earlier posts on here are really disturbing, didn't someone say they found it funny and wished she had seen the look on his face when the teacher grabbed him?

What that man did was so horribly wrong and off the mark, depressed, stressed or not. I find it really incongrous with a lot of the posts on here I read about children having problems with behaviour at school, playing up with Teachers and how to handle it. How would any of the defenders of this man feel if it were their son that was nearly killed for being rude and disruptive?

I feel sorry for all concerned but feel the Teacher was totally in the wrong.

elliemental · 30/04/2010 18:16

the whole thing about murder is it is premeditated. with malice aforethought. That teacher did not wake up that morning, arm himself with a weapon and think ''I'm going to kill that boy...''

YABU.

Obviously I am very sorry for the injured child and his family but I also feel desperately sorry for an ill man whose life has been ruined by his illness.

The whole situation is tragic.