to be cross with my elderly fil about the meaning of easter

[nickschick]

Bit tongue in cheek really.

FIL was today bemoaning the fact that he couldnt go to tesco for his cigar supply as they were shut for Easter.

Its only Easter he said they could have had usual Sunday hours ,its not like Christmas or anything.....

ONLY EASTER?????? i SHOUTED - JESUS DIED ON A CROSS FOR US!!!! EASTER IS MORE SPECIAL THAN CHRISTMAS - YES EASTER IS IMPORTANT.

and that sais dh is why you should never discuss religion with a catholic especially not one who sat in a cold church for an hour and a half last night at the easter vigil.

"So you won't mind if I refer to the crap-peddling, witch burning, gay bashing, women hating christians who killed anyone who disagreed with them or had an original thought for centuries and held back our societies (and still do)"

I don't mind at all. These things are nothing to do with Christ. They are the actions of men who use the teaching for their own ends. Just like everything else has changed over time, these things will also change over time.

"Claig: you keep persisting in this very odd idea that one brand of superstition, ie your preferred brand, is what drives social progress when the opposite is true. The progressive societies are the ones that are ditching superstition while allowing individuals to carry on indulging in it as long as they don't bother the rest of us."

SolidGoldBrass, I think the fact that you can question things in our society is due to the history of our society, and a great part of that history has been formed by our faith.
Try being progressive in Afghanistan. Progressive humanist thought will add to the changes that will come about in our society in the future, but a lot of the roots of that thought originally came from the Christian view that we are all equal in the eyes of God, the rich man is no better than the poor man.

abitpearshaped, can you explain why the christians need US to not go shopping on THEIR special day. I see why they don't want to, but how does it affect them that we are doing our thing?

And if my religion required us to run naked through the streets one day a year would christians do the same out of respect?

There are indeed many jobs which nave to operate on a 24/7 basis and mine is one of them. I agree with you, SGB, it would be a lot better to accept that people can arrange to take days off when it is of pasrticular importance to them. Its becoming increasingly difficult to find jobs that don't operate on these days and many here are advocating that more professions should be allowed to operate on said days, which would make it even harder.

so we are agreed, runny, that shops etc should be able to open but those for whom it holds significant religious belief should be allowed to have the day off?

Claig, if you are saying that Christianity has been corrupt and a bad influence from the start and still is today because of the actual people practising it then what part of Christianity are we supposed to be respecting?

If it's only Christ's words then I'm pretty sure he had nothing to say about Easter so that's settled then.

onager - no one is forcing you to do anything on Easter day - you don't have to go to church or participate in any religious ceremony, so your question is a little irrelevant. However, I do take your point that if you want to shop and businesses want to open, then why not, as long as those for whom it is a problem for in terms of their religion aren't forced to work. Sounds like a reasonable, tolerant solution.

I'm not missing the point... I'm saying that in a year, there's plenty of room to respect the beliefs of lots of people. The shops are open on sundays... and saturdays.

SGB... I don't think we disagree. I do think that folk should be allowed to worship on their special days though and sundays should be worked by those who don't hold those beliefs.

Unfortunately, our schools are run around the old system of weekends so that would erode family life.

Which is a good reason for a 'day of rest'. Time spent with family to re-charge.

The dog is starting to jig now...

absolutely, cheesy, they should. That would be tolerance, in my book.

I suppose for some employees and employers, there must be a difference in law between employment in a service required to operate 7 days a week and working in a retail environment selling to the public. I do not know the law well, although I think there is some ruling about the size of the premises.
I have concern for how aggressive some people are on this thread, regarding how strongly they feel. Debate is useful and neccessary, but let's not make this up to now great thread degenerate into mudslinging. I am referring to both sides of the arguement when I make that request.

onagar, yes I think that Christ's teachings are paramount. However, the traditions of this country are that we have holidays at Easter and Christmas, due to their Christian connotations, rather than any prior pagan origins. The reason that these traditions exist is to maintain the practise of Christianity. They are human traditions to give praise, thanks and worship God. They are part of our culture and should therefore be respected by the minority who may not believe in them.

Funny how the non-Christians still give and receive Christmas and Easter gifts though isn't it? Alright to respect the fun bits, but oh dear, when it's not convenient...

At least the Jehovah Witnesses I know, who do not believe in Christianity, are not two faced enough to celebrate Christmas and Easter.

It's about respecting the traditions of the Country you live in.

Interesting about Jehovahs Witnesses. Often regarded as odd, but good point.
To the secularists, out of interest; which do you think is the preferred option: Easter as a whole to be done away with, so as well as removing the religious aspect get rid of the days off, Easter eggs, bunnies and anything associated with it, or would you support a "middle ground", and if so, what would that be?

Wrong

Wrong.

I can see that you don't believe what I and others have explained about the origins and current practice. I can only suggest that you research it and then come back to it later. Even most Christians would agree about the origins. Certainly all theologians.

As for current practice you need only look to sermons from priests pleading to return to the old ways to know that in fact very few practice it as a religious festival now. Some may pop into church, but then it's down to the easter eggs, the food and the wine.

I am glad you have abandoned all pretence about having tolerance and respect for other peoples beliefs, but find it quite odd that you still want that for yours.

Still, it's better to be open about these things even if they do show you in a bad light.

onagar, I think you are confused. I have tolerance for your beliefs in Oestre. I think you are confused if you think that the state gives us a bank holiday on Good Friday as a result of your beliefs in Oestre.

Tabithacat "Funny how the non-Christians still give and receive Christmas and Easter gifts though isn't it? Alright to respect the fun bits, but oh dear, when it's not convenient..."

How many times must this be explained? The gift giving came before Christianity. Christians who join in are probably being sacrilegious. Especially at easter when the eggs are meant to be fertility symbols and are about worshipping Astarte/eostre.

You do know about all the rest don't you? you know what the yule log is about? the mistletoe, the tree etc? it's all pagan or secular. Christmas is supposed to be about an orgy of food and sex. We've mostly abandoned the sex part (after all that food how could you?) but that's the meaning of Christmas.

Keep celebrating it if your god doesn't mind, but please stop claiming you own it. It was there before Christianity and will be there when Christianity is gone.

I think we have gone away from what the OP was saying which was that as a Christian festival, Easter is actually more important than Christmas.

"Its only Easter he said they could have had usual Sunday hours ,its not like Christmas or anything....."

It is the most important festival in the Christian calendar and not some sort of poor relation of Christmas.

I am very interested in religion, and have read a few books on the origins and doctrine of several religions. I in no way an expert though. Many religions have festivals that closely link with ones from previous belief systems. But the purpose of the festival is to celebrate what they believe, which may or may not be different from the previous belief system. So in that aspect, they do in fact "own" the festival from the point of view of their particular religion. It is more about their belief system than the rituals associated. I'm still interested in whether people would prefer the whole thing (days off included) to be abolished.

Just please quietly stop it-tongue in cheek or not.Not one of you would abuse a central part of Islam or any other religion so dont do it to Christianity.It is like children shouting along with the school bully.

Peppapig - I work full time, go shopping (with DH and DS in tow currently as I'm pregnant with SPD), come home, unpack, cook dinner and get DS to bed. DH helps out but yes it's tiring.

abitpearshaped, if christians want to keep their easter and christmas holy they can. They should probably stop joining in our bit though. No easter eggs, xmas presents, no tree, log, mistletoe or special food.

As it is they are celebrating ours while telling us we are doing it wrong and spoiling theirs.

It is perfectly ok for them to have theirs on the same day, but the ownership thing doesn't really work like that in my opinion. Their part of it is theirs. Our part is ours.

The days off part can be worked out reasonably well using current rules, but you are never going to be able to shut down the country on those days in any case. That only worked for farmers/hunters.

Religious people must learn to cope with other people not sharing their beliefs and not doing things their way.

I have read this whole thread from beginning to end with sadness.

I am a Christian. I don't believe it it to be supernatural, superstition, clap-trap, fairy stories, or any other derogatory, insulting descriptions used to describe this religion on this thread.

My relationship with God is personal to me and I don't always go to church. Church is not a pre-requisite to being a Christian. Christianity is not agressive, violent, intolerant or a ridiculous way of life. It promotes love, acceptance, tolerance and compassion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even if you remove Christianity from this argument, the promotion of those attributes in people would do wonders for improving our society.

I don't care when people want to shop. I choose to observe my religious holidays for me and all of my extended family who are Christians because it is our religion. I am not trying to force my religious believes on anyone else.

You do what you want but please do not insult my religion in the way you are. I find it deeply offensive and it is contrary to your own argument of insisting we observe your right to do what you want without judgement or pressure.

This is an attack on Christianity dressed up as a debate. It is very unpleasant reading.

Our local shops and services (including the doctors) close on a Monday once a month for a "local holiday". The supermarkets jump on that bandwagon by opening late and closing early. Now that does annoy me.

this country may have been Christian once but that description no longer applies. Hence there is no good reason for Sunday closing hours, closures for Christian holidays, etc. And why should people get extra pay on Sundays - that also makes no sense. It's just a throwback to the days when the majority actually did go to church.

It would have been much more convenient for me to shop Sunday then having to send DH out at the last minute Saturday evening before dinner to get a few things in.

I agree Fruity- and also agree with Pranma.

Substitute Christianity for any other religion and watch the backlash. Why are Christians fair game?

Not one of you would abuse a central part of Islam or any other religion so dont do it to Christianity.It is like children shouting along with the school bully>>

Someone always posts to say "oh you wouldn't say that about..."

But of course we would. It doesn't apply in this case because muslims are not claiming they invented xmas and demanding total control of it, but for the record islam is just as misguided and just as untrue as Christianity. No more holy to me than are Fairies, Odin, Thor, Anubis etc