to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

@ crumpet.

I didn't demand anything other tan DD not come home with her head full of religion. every thing else was compromise with the head.

also I have said earlier that there are Two CofE schools close by, so if any parent specifically wanted a Christian education, they would have put their DCs in to those under subscribed schools.

Tinnitus,

In my experience for a child to take a faith as their own they often need support from home. I doubt if some religion at school joined with your own skepticism at home will make your child become a Christian.

Surely being informed by your own perspective and the faith perspective at school will help her to make her own mind up in the fullness of time, and isn't that what all parents should aim for? If my children choose not to follow my own faith then I will be happy, as long as their decision is informed and they understand both what they are rejecting and embracing.

What you can do is ensure that the basic values that you feel are important, e.g. how to treat people, attitudes towards money, environmental concerns, or whatever you believe to be ethically important, are values that are around your DD as she grows up. Whether she becomes a Christian, an atheist, or anything else, if she shares common values like those which can be held whatever your religious/non-religious worldview is then you can be proud of her. Whether you are Christian, atheist or something else you can turn out to be a caring, tolerant, optimistic individual or a judgemental, narrow-minded misanthrope. I would spend more energy encouraging the best of values in your DD, that will be far more important to her in the long term than any faith perspective she may or may not adopt.

Cheers,

PV.

permanentvacation, you miss the point. We require simply that the religious leave OUR children alone. Not that they stop being religious.

Can you see the difference or not?

Also until recently and even now in many christian churches they teach of hellfire and damnation. So there is plenty of "do you mean you WANT your children to burn in agony for all eternity" going around.

Your atheist friend was wrong, but he didn't belong to a group dedicated to the idea that your children would suffer. Unlike members of those churches which believe in hell.

I doubt if some religion at school joined with your own skepticism at home will make your child become a Christian>>

Whether they fail is beside the point. They shouldn't be trying in the first place.

@ permanentvacation

throughout this thread, every one who feels that I should let my DD be "informed by your own perspective and the faith perspective at school" has turned out to describe themselves as having faith. Please excuse my exasperation, but that seems to cloud their view of the OP. The school made an agreement with me and failed to live up to it. that is the issue. not my parenting or how I prioritize my efforts.

Of course I feel strongly about religion or I would never have made a fuss in the first place. and yes that does, by definition, cloud by opinion of the issue of religion.

As for allowing my child to make up her own mind. I have never discussed faith with my child, as she is SEVEN. so why should a stranger?

Piscesmoon - If you are a Christian how can you be happy for your children to be atheists? Does that not deny them heaven?

Tinnitus - thanks for clarifying that, I havn't read every post on this rather long thread! If the school had agreed to keep your child away from any religious activity in the school then they should have honoured that.

But to keep your daughter entirely away from religion will be difficult, given that around 71% of the UK say they are Christians while 15% say they have no religion (2001 Census). I suspect the majority religion of the UK is non-practising Christianity! At some point all children will come across ideas like God, heaven, prayer and so forth, and they will ask questions - I know my kids do. So having some way to deal with these questions when they arise, and doing so in an open minded manner, is important. When my children ask questions about other faith viewpoints I try and give a fair and open response, but I am from the liberal end of Christianity and value their capacity to make their own minds up.

You are right to insist that she is kept away from Christian practice (e.g. being asked to pray) if that is an issue for you, and the school should respect it. And I agree that in a non-church school anyone representing a faith outlook should stress it is their perspective, and one of many. But I also feel children should learn about what different people believe and how it shapes their lives (and I include atheism within that). Probably not in too much depth at seven, but children can think about these things and ask questions from much younger than seven.

The explaining belief/participating in practice is an important dividing line. I would be happy for an atheist, buddhist or whoever to talk in an open way at my DDs school, making clear it was their perspective. But involvement in the practice of a faith which is not the outlook the child is being raised within is a step too far for me, and I can see is for you as well.

I hope that makes my position clear.

Cheers,

PV.

'I am wondering where piscesmoon learned to expect no help from an atheist and more importantly where they learned to judge-by-label. '

I was the one trying not to label! Of course millions of atheists do good deeds without hope of return, the same as millions of Christians do good deeds without hope of return. My whole point was that it is nothing to do with faith-it is down to human nature! Some people are just plain horrible-and it doesn't matter if they have faith or not-in the same way that some people are wonderfully kind-and that has nothing to do with faith either. I expect there are thousands of atheist households where I could knock on the door in distress and they would help-I merely said that I could be sure that if I knocked at a vicarage I could expect it. I expressed doubt that SGB would do anything other than slam the door in my face, especially if she knew that I believed in 'the great pumpkin fairy in the sky'. I just wondered how much of her time she has spent helping those in need, before she criticised those that do.
Some Christians are anti gay, but so are some atheists. Twenty years ago we had a gay vicar-possibly people went elsewhere, I don't know, but he had a church full of people who knew and weren't in the least bothered.

What a weird view oojimaflip-heaven is just for believers!!!!! I suppose you have a view that it is up in the clouds with St Peter on the gate with his little note book jotting down if people went to church and how many times!! I have never heard such rubbish! For a start there are lots of people who have a broadly Christian viewpoint who never go near organised religion. I believe that there is life after death-in what form I have absolutely no idea but if there is it is for everyone. I don't believe in hell. People make their own hell-I think that people are on earth to learn lessons.

I am happy that my DCs made their own choice-they are not my possessions. I keep repeating myself because no one has explained why your child has to think the same as you because you gave birth. Why on earth should my children think the same as me?!! Are you saying that I should be spouting drivel about not getting into heaven, if they don't fall in with my ideas?

My mother once went to lenten lectures and the vicar asked 'what people should do to get into heaven'-to her horror he was looking straight at her. She said 'nothing really-life throws challenges at you and you cope with them as best you can at the time'. I think it was a pretty good answer, when she was put on the spot-I can't think of a better one-it is all anyone can do. It isn't like brownie points where you think I will go and help an old lady because it will gain some points. Surely it is like anyone-a thoughtful person sees she needs help and does it-they are not seeking reward ANYWHERE.

Piscesmoon - I think it's pretty standard Christian Dogma that belief in God - and in general practicing Christianity are pre-requisites for entry into heaven.

People who pick-and-mix the bits of Christianity you like and ignore the ones you don't I tend to call notChristians

piscesmoon - If you can go to Heaven without believing in God or following an established church, why would one join an established church of believe in God?

Onagar - my views on religion in school have been expressed in my above post to Tinnitus, so I won't repeat them here.

As for whether Christians have the right to try and persuade others of the validity of their views, that is a right anyone has in a free society. Some atheists actively try to promote their viewpoint - writing books, going on lecture tours, making TV programmes, putting opinion pieces in the press, holding summer camps, posting on websites, advertising on buses, etc. etc. etc. Are they wrong to do that?

I read some of this atheist output to keep myself informed, I believe it is important to understand where people are coming from. But the more bile-filled, ill informed or just plain bonkers points of view I tend to ignore, life's too short. In life in general we can't control the messages that are around us, but we have the right to say "no thank you" and ignore them. I appreciate that with children in school there are different issues, I am speaking here mainly about one adult's right to express their views and another adult's right to ignore them.

As for your claims on hellfire and damnation, how many churches have you been in recently to survey how much that is a part of the teaching? The C of E alone has 16,000 churches, how many have you checked up on to see if hellfire and brimstone is a cornerstone of their message, or whether the emphasis is more on love? My experience of a good deal of churches that they focus more on the latter, and I haven't heard a hellfire and damnation sermon in a very long time. In fact you are as likely to hear a message of theological inclusivism (which I suspect is the majority view among UK Christians) or universalism as you are an exclusivist message in most UK churches. It's just that the excluvisists (i.e. "you won't go to heaven if you're not a Christian") are louder than the rest.

Cheers,

PV.

Piscesmoon - I think someone who GENUINELY believed that there children would go to hell if they didn't believe/act a certain way would do everything in their power to ensure that they did. Delusional certainly, but good parenting by their own standards. I think it's rude how true beleivers give up trying to convert me so easily - as they are condemning me to hell. I'm sure that must be a stain on their souls.

I may be misinterpreting your ideology, but I can't see who according to your personal beliefs believing in God makes and DIFFERENCE. How does it make you behave differently, or alter outcomes in your life/the afterlife as opposed to disbeleiving in God?

permanentvacation - same questions to you as to piscesmoon.

permanentvacation - I think we have previously pretty much reach consensus on this thread that religious EDUCATION in schools is a desirable thing.

What many people object to is that Christian WORSHIP is expected by default in state schools.

Ask yourself honestly, would you not feel a little strange about your child (at a very young age, before they can even really understand what is going on) being expected to worship a faith/belief OTHER than your own?

I agree Tinnitus. Had the same thing happen yesterday. DD came home and told me a very 'sad story' about jesus who died on an X (not a cross) and that it was a magic X as 'he came alive again'. I did laugh as I imagined how shocked her gran would be at the inaccuracies.

I also object to the gruesome nature of the story of Easter. A man is tortured and killed. Not the sort of thing I think kids should be told whether you believe it or not.

oojimaflip

For me being part of a church isn't about having an insurance policy in case this afterlife business turns out to be true. It's about being part of a community that supports one another on our journey through life, and doing so from a perspective of faith. My faith enriches my life, and I hope challenges me to try and live life being a bit more aware of the needs of those around me.

I'm not a Christian because I want a golden ticket into heaven, but because (for various reasons) I believe in God and believe that has implications for how I live. My faith is important to me for living my life now, it's not about doing the right things to get into heaven. It gives me a sense of peace, a sense of perspective and a direction in life. I am not quick to dismiss a pattern of life which has been important to people for two millennia, and feel there is much to learn for my life here and now from the way others have lived in the past.

Whether you choose to follow the same path or me or not doesn't concern me much - it's your life after all. While becoming a Christian has given me a lot which is positive in my life, and I am happy when I see other people come to faith and find the same positive things for their own lives, I'm not in the business of forcing it on other people. If you're happy where you are at then I am happy for you (I genuinely mean that, I am not trying to come across as condescending).

I hope that makes sense!

ooojimaflip Thu 01-Apr-10 15:36:43
Piscesmoon - If you are a Christian how can you be happy for your children to be atheists? Does that not deny them heaven?

No, it doesn't, ooojimaflip. From a Catholic perspective, 'getting to Heaven' requires the love and the mercy of God (Thomas Aquinas, I think). The RC Church emphasises the love of God, not any intrinsically flawed human logic or good intentions or actions as the path to Heaven. The response to such abiding love is a sense of human humility.

'Standard Christian Dogma' doesn't exist.

More and more, some posters on this thread are coming across as paranoid about religion, not to mention unread and ignorant, and judgemental in the extreme.

FWIW, I find it appalling that either churches or the state in the UK would think there is anything to gain by requiring RE in schools. Church and religious involvement by children should be up to parents, and there should be a secular educational option as there is in the US.

CiderIUPAndSetIFree

That's pretty much what I said in my above response to Tinnitus regarding the distinction between understanding someone's beliefs and being involved in religious practice when you don't necessarily share those beliefs. And parents have a right, even in church schools, for there children not to take part in religious worship. That Tinnitus expressed a wish that her DD shouldn't be involved with religious practice and they subsequently overlooked/ignored that is an error by the school.

Tinnitus in your post on Friday (17:36) you said that you had expressly said that your dd was not to be removed from her friends.

So, if the schools has whatever religious elements to it, you don't want her to be involved, but you want her to remain with her classmates, you are requiring the school to change, non?

You also haven't mentioned that other parents are up in arms, so I'm afraid you are saying that you want these changes in order to accomodate your own personal preferences, rather than just allowing your daughter to be pulled out at the relevant time.

YABU

OK - this is Wiki's section on Heaven in different Christian traditions. So it's in no way authoritative, but probably a reasonable summary:-

"In Christianity

Christianity has taught "Heaven" as a place of eternal life, in that it is a shared plane to be attained by all the elect (rather than an abstract experience related to individual concepts of the ideal). The Christian Church has been divided over how people gain this eternal life. From the 16th to the late 19th century, Christendom was divided between the Roman Catholic view, the Orthodox view, the Coptic view, the Jacobite view, the Abyssinian view and Protestant views. See also Christian denominations.
Roman Catholics believe that entering purgatory cleanses one of sin (period of suffering until one's nature is perfected), during agony in which makes one acceptable to enter heaven. This is valid for venial sin only, as mortal sins can be forgiven only through the act of reconciliation and repentance while on earth[13]. Some within the Anglican Communion, notably Anglo-Catholics, also hold to this belief, despite their separate history. However, in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic Churches, it is only God who has the final say on who enters heaven. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, heaven is understood as union (Theosis) and communion with the Triune God (reunion of Father and Son through love).
In Protestant Christian sects, eternal life depends upon the sinner receiving God's grace (unearned and undeserved blessing stemming from God's love) through faith in Jesus' death for their sins, see atonement, his resurrection as the Christ, and accepting his Lordship (authority and guidance) over their lives. Some Protestant sects also teach that a physical baptism, or obligatory process of transformation or experience of spiritual rebirth, is further required. Also, Protestantism is divided into groups who believe in the doctrine of eternal security (once a person becomes a Christian, s/he remains one forever, also referred to by the slogan "once saved, always saved") and those who believe that a person who sins continually without any repentance or penitence was never saved in the first place. Some sects do believe that those who continually sin can lose their salvation, though it is generally believed that it shows that the individual was not fully committed in the first place.
"

So as I have almost certainly committed a mortal sin at some point and haven't and won't confess, I can't see a way into a Catholic heaven for me!

And as I haven't and won't accept Christ's Lordship it looks like I'm shit out of luck with the protestants as well.

Millions of people have Christian beliefs and believe in God and never go near organised religion. Are you saying that one particular section have some sort of hotline? Are Catholics the 'true faith' and the rest damned?
It is all man made.
I am Cof E -there because Henry Vlll wanted a divorce and the Pope wouldn't let him! Is this giving Cof E a hotline? (an argument that had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with wealth and power). Where does this leave the non conformist churches?
If I set up a new church tomorrow and get some supporters-enough for worship, can I join the special hotline? Or did you have to be established before the Renaissance or before Martin Luther or before John Wesley? If you pray alone at home does this count? The whole thing is silly. Of course God is for everyone, whether they choose him or not. It isn't some cliquey club with a membership secretary keeping tabs on everyone! God never gets the chance to say that he doesn't want 'hell fire' messages preached.

If churches were preaching 'hellfire and damnation' you wouldn't get me through the door! It should be about love, forgiveness and treating your neighbour as yourself. It is because organised religion is man made that it gets in such a mess. People have freedom to choose. Being a Christian doesn't mean that you have to take part in organised religion.

I can see why people become such passionate atheists if they believe that God wants everyone filling a pew on Sundays, believing that Noah built an ark, singing hymns that tell the poor man he should know his place, doing good deeds only to get a place in the after life and that the priest should be preaching hellfire and damnation to those who don't comply! If I believed all that I would be one too! My sons not going to church and not believing in a God makes no difference to what happens to them after death-it will be exactly what happens to everyone else.

mathanxiey - I know - I said 'pretty standard' to indicate 'shared by many traditions' rather than anything else. Well I suppose their is only ONE real tradition, just disagreement over which it is.

permanentvacation - I was responding to your point

But I also feel children should learn about what different people believe and how it shapes their lives (and I include atheism within that).>>

just saying that I think most people here would agree with that.

It's the 'worship by default' thing which is the problem for many - it's really not good for certain children to have to be 'excluded' from what should be the most inclusive part of the school day, ie assembly.

And as you say, certainly not good if they have promised to do the exclusion and then don't.

Exactly oojimaflip-man made as is Wiki