to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

Piscesmoon - If christianity is really about love, forgiveness and treating your neighbour as yourself, then I REALLY don't understand what is is for. As that just sounds like a description of living a reasonably good life.

I was thinking about this thread the other day when at ds' classroom I was told, "the children will be going to church this morning, would you mind x attending or do you want him to stay here at school" come again??

I felt like I was in no position to say no, as all the other parents had said "no problem" "that's great" etc. I did say yes (even though I'm muslim and didn't actually have a problem with it) but felt, if I had of had a problem and not wanted ds to go, what could I have done. Said no and drawn the attention of the other parents, caused my ds to be separated from the rest of his classmates, caused a stir and become that parent.

Although I don't have a problem with certain "religious" aspects of school, I can understand how you feel. If a muslim or jewish parent came on here and said what you had said I reckon there would have been replies of either "go to a Muslim/Jewish school" or a unanimous "that's outrageous and prejudiced". As an athiest I don't think you are treated the same way. Surely athiesm (ironically) should be treated as the other religions.

I think that you have finally got there ooojimaflip! Some people do it with a belief in God and some don't! If there is a God, do you really think that he will pass over an atheist, who made a huge positive contribution to the general good of society, in favour of a selfish person who hurts others but pops into church once a week to confess and make a penance so he can do it again next week?!

Piscesmoon - So church is just a social club and belief in god is irrelevant. That seems an odd position for someone who describes themselves as a christian to take.

@ crumpet.

I didn't demand anything other tan DD not come home with her head full of religion. every thing else was compromise with the head.

also I have said earlier that there are Two CofE schools close by, so if any parent specifically wanted a Christian education, they would have put their DCs in to those under subscribed schools.

I know this is just a copy of my earlier post, which was also in answer to you. but you keep asking the same questions.

@ damnedchilblains

Thank you. personally I have no problem being "that parent" but i worry about DD being "that child"

did you go back and read your post from Friday? You said that she could not be removed from her class!

"In the meeting with the head mistress I pointed out that DD was not to be separated from her friends as that would be a nightmare for her and cause a huge fuss."

@ crumpet

No, She can't, why should she? all I asked of the head was that DD not COME HOME talking about Christianity as though it were fact. The head agreed and it was she who stated first that DD should not be set apart.

Religion isn't a matter of signing a dotted line, turning up for services, and agreeing to believe a certain set of non-negotiables. It's more of a journey through life guided by faith in God and by a desire to keep on moving forward with it with an open heart and mind and spirit, possibly in community with others and maybe also in communion with whatever organised church you belong to.

OK you got me, one of us said it first and the other agreed.

Which means that you were asking the school to change how it does things - thanks for confirming that - we are not in disgreement on that point, only the point as to whether YABU.....

I didn't say that God was irrelevent ooojimaflip-he would be the cetral reason for it. It is a way of like minded people to get together to worship in a way that suits them. The Catholic way wouldn't suit me, neither would 'happy clappy' evangelicals. I am beginning to think I am more suited to Quakerism-I will only know if I try it. You can equally be a Christian by having nothing to do with organised religion and not going to a 'social club'.

'For me being part of a church isn't about having an insurance policy in case this afterlife business turns out to be true. It's about being part of a community that supports one another on our journey through life, and doing so from a perspective of faith. My faith enriches my life, and I hope challenges me to try and live life being a bit more aware of the needs of those around me.

permanentvacation posted this at 16.41 and more. I agree with her entire message and feel the same. I really couldn't care less whether people feel the need for a faith or not, it is a private matter, but keep posting because so much hatred, vitrol and Christian bashing is going on. I am perfectly happy for SGB and others to be atheist and have no wish to convert them but do object to having those with a faith called 'toxic tosspots' among other things! Live and let live-including your own children.

By methanxiety Thu 01-Apr-10 17:19:47
Religion isn't a matter of signing a dotted line, turning up for services, and agreeing to believe a certain set of non-negotiables. It's more of a journey through life guided by faith in God and by a desire to keep on moving forward with it with an open heart and mind and spirit, possibly in community with others and maybe also in communion with whatever organised church you belong to.

Perhaps. But what has that got to do with DD education?

In her education she can move forward with an open heart and spirit-hearing all views and ultimately making up her own mind! (Bearing in mind the words 'I believe' or 'we believe' or 'they believe' should go in front of everything-at home and at school)

Damn straight I asked (not demanded) the school to change. and they agreed, (not conceded). so if your point is that I should sit back and not interfere with how my DD is educated, then I'm not sure you have thought it through.

"In her education she can move forward with an open heart and spirit"

DD HAS those things already.

Education should be a home/ school partnership-always go in and discuss things that you are not happy with (politely).

Good the school can foster them then! She is in a good starting point for hearing all and making up her own mind.

I am not a Catholic and I don't fully understand these issues, but as far as I know the Catholic church only accepts the Eastern orthodox church as another real church, all other churches have defects. The Catholic church used to claim, via the Unam Sanctam, that salvation is only available if you are a Catholic, and that heretics like Protestants would not go to heaven. Cardinal Ratzinger drew up the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's 2000 declaration, Dominus Iesus, which aimed to clarify the situation. It is complicated but I am not sure that the position has really changed. Maybe there are some Catholic scholars who could clarify it.

www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_othe.htm

Once again some of the superstition-defenders are missing the point: in a nice person who helps others and doesn't see the need to pester them about fairies in the sky, religious belief is just a harmless, silly little quirk that can be overlooked the same way as having lousy taste in music can be overlooked. When I talk about 'toxic tosspots' I SPECIFICALLY mean the anti-gay misogynists, the ones who bomb abortion clinics and ban books, the ones who campaign against the use of condoms in AIDS-affected countries and generally make themselves obnoxious. The existence of these people is why it's important not to privilege the superstitious over others, not to let one particular set of superstitions be allowed to affect the lives of people who don't share them and don't want to, in public space.
Usually, someone demanding 'respect' for their particular brand of bullshit is actually demanding the right to inflict it on other people, to pester them about it in the workplace or prohibit them from doing/eating/reading something because Great Pumpkin wouldn't like it, and that's what I have a problem with. Not perfectly pleasant people going about their lives and not interfering with mine.

"As for whether Christians have the right to try and persuade others of the validity of their views, that is a right anyone has in a free society"

Yes, but not vulnerable children without their parents permission and not using their authority as teachers to promote their particular religion.

Am also fascinated by the idea that no one believes in hell any more or heaven being only for the righteous (those who join OUR church)

Jehovah's witnesses for a start believe that only some will be resurrected. Lots of others do too. I'm fairly certain it's the majority view.

"Lots of others do too. I'm fairly certain it's the majority view."

It is the majority view of the abrahamic faiths. Maybe not necessarily the whole "those that join our church" but is definitely in these religions to say certain people will be saved and certain folk won't. People just don't say it nowadays because they feel that it is "un-PC" but as far as I'm concerned if that's what you believe then that's what you believe, why deny it?

I think that you are talking about the extremists and bigots SGB-they exist everywhere-among atheists too. I am talking about the silent majority, who just get on quietly without recognition-in fact the totally boring majority-who keep quiet and get things done. Faith or lack of it should be a very private matter. I would hope that you mean, in that case SGB, that very private people who quietly get on with living their lives with a faith are not to be called 'toxic tosspots', or dismissed as loonies because they have 'different' views.

I don't agree with ANYTHING that the Jehovah Witnesses believe onagar-if being a Christian meant that I had to embrace that, then I wouldn't be a Christian. I am very much against an 8yr old DC saying they can't make a costume for a play because 'Mummy wouldn't like it' when they can't say why 'Mummy wouldn't like it' and they would like to take part-which is my experience of Jehovah Witnesses. However I defend their right to think it-as long as they don't involve me.( I have no trouble when they knock at the door-I say 'I'm not interested thank you'and close the door-so it doesn't impinge).

I am beginning to think that perhaps RE should be excluded from school-when so many people seem to take their ideas from childish things they didn't understand at the time! I expect there are still people on here who think that a baby who dies before they are christened is excluded from heaven!

I think that heaven, for want of a better word, is something way outside any experience of man, (or woman)-we think we are so clever and know it all but I doubt it!

I also think that we ought to take account of the time that people lived. If Mother Theresa had been born in London in 1975, rather than Albania in 1910 I dare say she would have believed in birth control. I owuld expect that if Richard the Lionheart had been born in 1975 then he wouldn't have thought the Crusades a 'true' cause! (I have just taken 1975 at random)

onagar - for people's right to represent their views, but also the need to have a framework of protection against the blunt indoctrination of children (whether by christians, atheists or anyone else) we seem to be agreed.

As for the whole whether people are "saved" or not, there is a huge diversity of opinions within the church, irrespective of any "official" pronouncements from particular institutions. As I said above, there are some who are exclusivists ("no salvation outside our religion or sect"), many who are inclusivists ("you don't have to be a part of our religion to be saved, you will be judged according to what light you have seen and how you responded to it") and some who are universalists ("the nature of God's love is such that all will, in some way, be saved"). For example, following Vatican II (Catholic Council in the 1960s) many Catholics have come to adopt an inclusivist position. Indeed, the last few decades have seen a shift away from exclusivism towards inclusivism as a general trend across many denominations.

I will repeat my experience that I come across more inclusivist/universalist Christians than I do hardened exclusivists, and my experience includes working for an Anglican Diocese covering 600 churches. So I would be hesitant to attribute a sharp "turn-or-burn" mentality to the majority of Christians. Most recognise that it is more complicated than that and ultimately only God knows.

Cheers,

PV.