to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

Thank you I will of course keep the thread updated on any progress, if for no other reason than to get it back on topic.

While I think I broadly agree with SGBs sentiment I do try to reserve my expletives for the religion not the religious, (perhaps with a few notable exceptions.) But I can well understand the frustration of trying to get across the fairly poor record religion has in our history. Now religion is being effectively forced on my DD despite me making my feelings clear to the school. to me that is a continuation of the Jesuit practices and totally unacceptable.

And please understand that I DO want my child to receive religious education. but this is religious instruction. she is seven and it is not fair to put me in a position where my DD is the disruptive one, or the excluded one. there are two CofE schools near to her schools so I can safely assume any parent who wanted a Christian education would have sent their DCs to them.

Piscesmoon: the 'toxic tosspots' are the ones who want to retain the right to discriminate against gay people, or prevent women from having access to contraception/abortion or indeed kill those who happen not to believe in their imaginary friend. Why should anyone 'respect' these people's stupid beliefs?

They actually want laws to make us respect their delusions.

Yeees - you certainly did cover the whole spectrum of religious faith there.

I am finding it very interesting how the language on this thread has developed BTW.

When I see 'healing' now I ask why no one ever went to Lourdes and got cured of a missing limb.

I think I have Professor Dawkins to thank for that thought, but it says it all really that it is only ever things that can easily be faked.

Oh the 'faith' healing is like all the rest of the woo-bollocks 'alternative' medicine - it works well enough on stuff that would, er, get better on its own anyway, like colds, collywobbles and vague feelings of discomfort attributed to spending too much time with your head up your arse.

So, Spacehopper, you went in search of wisdom, truth, or something along those lines, and you arrived at......YouTube . Ye gods. The fount of all knowledge, or fact, or whatever.

The prejudice on here is so breathtaking that I think -'walk away and leave it'-but then, like a fool I have to say something.

Human nature is the same the world over; has been since the year dot and always will be. Some Christians discriminate against gay people and don't believe in birth control so this applies to ALL Christians? (I don't know any of these people personally-although I know a great many Christians). Are you saying that every single atheist thinks the same way? That there isn't a single atheist in the world who discriminates against gay people? I think that you will find that all educated catholics believe in birth control-and uneducated ones too in the western world. Those with huge families in the UK wanted huge families-on the whole. I think you would find that most members of the BNP for example, never go near a church.Are people who write hate mail never atheists?

Christians who get out there and make a difference are all castigated because of a few. Lives would be blighted in this country if all the Christian organisations stopped their good works. Many give up their own Christmas Day for example to give Christmas to the homeless. I know a Sikh lady who cooks for the homeless on a Saturday night, in her own home at her own expense. She now gets donations and helpers, but she started alone.
If I was in dire circumstances I am secure in the knowledge that I could knock on a vicarage door, whatever my faith or lack of it, and I would be offered help. I wouldn't knock on SGB door-I fully expect it would be slammed in my face before she had listened to my story! If I was a Catholic she would tell me to go to my own kind!
The Salvation Army help those who no one else is prepared to help. How many 'dirty old tramps' are you prepared to get involved with SGB? Or am I misjudging you-perhaps you are devoting your spare time to the less fortunate-whatever their colour and creed?
If you are not-then I think that you should be grateful that someone else is doing it.

Mother Theresa devoted her life to helping the bottom layer of society, but she is in trouble because she was against birth control. I wonder how many elderly, spinster Albanians would follow your views SGB, even if they were atheists? My grandfather died when he was 104, he was a lovely man, but his opinions were at odds with the present world-he was a product of his generation-as was Mother Theresa.

As to Lourdes-are people with handicaps or illnesses to have no hope? Do you take it away from them because you don't believe in faith healing. I don't think it is the idea of deity-it is mind over matter-people can walk on hot coals if they believe they can.
Above all I would imagine that there is camaraderie in a big gathering. I was listening to the radio and an 11 yr old who was brain damaged in a bad car accident was cycling there with his Uncle to raise money. He wasn't expecting a cure but he was getting a tremendous amount out of it. Is all the good will and friendliness to be taken away because people pour scorn on it.

Christianity, to me,means love your neighbour as yourself. It doesn't mean love your neighbour as yourself if they hold the same views. I still can't understand the pure hatred that is coming across for people who are different.
Interestingly SGB -what is your position on gay Christians-is it OK to hate and discriminate againt them? Is it only atheist homosexuals that deserve equality because they have the 'right' views-e.g. the views that happen to fit in with SGB's views.

It should have been i.e. not e.g.

I think that SGB is saying ALL and most certainly we are ALL supposed to the see the world as SGB would like us to see it.

I would stop repeating myself if we stopped having the stream of hatred for anyone who happens to be different.
Also ,although I may be repeating myself-no one has answered my question of 14.18 yesterday.

Many millions of people of people with faith are con artists and responsible for atrocities but equally millions of atheists are too-and this is a FACT.
The sheer amount of grief, abuse,deception, death and human rights abuses caused by atheists are overwhelming too. Or have I got it wrong-are all atheists wonderful caring people who never beat a child, never write hate mail, never murder and are out all their spare time helping others? I would say it was down to human nature and nothing to do with a faith or lack of it.

I have been accused several times of manipulating a thread-how and why?-I don't see it. If anyone is manipulating a thread it is SGB who is using it to pour hatred and pure vitrol on everything that she hates about Christianity. It isn't answering OP. The person who manipulated it was the person who got it off children and schools-and that wasn't me!

I don't start a new subject-I only post to counter some of the 'inaccurate' (to me) statements. Because I am only replying, there must be a lot of repetition to reply to-but that doesn't get mentioned. It only seems to be repetition when you don't like it.

piscesmoon I can't believe you don't know that many/most mainstream churches are officially anti-gay, anti-women. Not just a random sample of members. You are talking nonsense to avoid facing or admitting the truth.

Lourdes is a sick and vile idea. Preying on the weak and vulnerable. Anyone can look at who gets 'cured' and who doesn't and see that it is a confidence trick so why would any decent person condone it?

As for not getting kind acts from non Christians that is just stupid.

Consider that many Christians will be kind people to start with before they joined. Unless you wish to claim that every Christian used to be evil before? Some of them might take exception to that.

Any christian who performs a kind act only because they are christian is not doing it for kindness, but for pleasing the church/god/other church members who might be watching.

Any non christian (non religious it should be but you are speaking of Christians) who performs a kind act without hope of reward is being genuinely kind.

"Are you saying that every single atheist thinks the same way?"

That's kind of the point. Atheists haven't got a proscribed set of morals, so they don't have to think the same way. Also, when an atheist does a good deed, you can be sure they are just being nice. When a person of faith does a good deed, you might wonder if they are just being nice, or are they just trying to impress the big man? That in no way suggests that they can't be nice, but it leaves doubt. An atheist can be judged on their actions, a faithful get judged by god.

DD1 has to write a poem at school today about what Easter means to her. I suggested Spring, flowers blooming, lambs in the fields, birds having chicks- she piped up "and Jesus! Though YOU don't believe it, mummy." So I then told her all about how Easter was originally a celebration of Spring, new life and fertility, and that Jesus was shoehorned in at a later date to jump on the popularity of the original festival. I wonder how she gets on with her poem!

Re atheists not ?doing their bit? to help those less fortunate, that simply isn?t true. Religious people don?t have a monopoly on caring for others.

Many (in fact probably most?) charities in this country are non-faith based, and people give endless hours of their time to help in charity shops, and fund-raise in other ways too. I know plenty of people who give up their time who are not religious - they do it because they enjoy it, it promotes a sense of community, and it is nice to feel that you are doing something to make a difference.

Tinnitus, I'm aware that the thread has gone a long way from the original post, but to answer it, YABU. Not unreasonable to request that your child is not involved in religious elements, but massively U to want to demand both (i) that your child is not involved in religious elements and (ii) that your precious child is not removed from her peers - changing the whole school's approach just to suit you (you have not indicated as far as I can see that there is a clear parental consensus) is both unreasonable and egotistical.

Crumpet under new rules coming in today all NHS inpatients will have to bow and pray to Allah when going to and from the X-Ray dept.

Those not wishing to may choose not to be x-rayed.

We ok with that?

There is no more reason to demand that children in a school worship god than patients in a hospital. Remember we're not talking about LEARNING that other other people worship, but being told it's right and having them worship.

You can withdraw your child from the school assembly, but this prevents them from taking part in other important activities.

Unless I'm confused, there seems to be two separate issues here re the OP:

1. is the particular school in the OP being unreasonable in saying it will do one thing and then doing another? Presumably it is obligated by law to do the Christian worship thing? Is doing more RI than strictly necessary, and not being honest with the parents about it?

1. is the current SYSTEM unreasonable which obligates schools to hold Christian worship in the first place?

There are different issues here, which Pisces raises in her points about it being pointless to complain to the school when it is the system which compels them to do the Christian worship thing.

As an aside, does anyone know what schools do which have a very high proportion of non-Christian pupils? Do 95% of the class sit outside in the corridor during assembly?

We should have the option to send our children to schools which will teach them what they need to carry on in 'big school' as a friend's little one delightfully calls it (too cute). The study of this philosophy should be left until they are less impressionable not when they are at their most susceptible to loony ideas (pre 7 to 11). We trust the teachers in our schools to protect our children from harm. This harm includes the compulsory practice of religious worship. This thread has only convinced my to home-educate DS until I KNOW that he won't have his head filled with bad ideas presented as 'facts' that he neither prepared to or old enough to argue with or disseminate for himself. If faith schools exist then so should secular schools.

I also had to sit through religious assemblies and take part in the carol service and remember that all it did was make me feel extremely uncomfortable as I really didn't understand what was being asked of us at times like the so called 'Harvest Festival'. My own mother would not let me go on the so called 'church' trips because I was too young. I'm an atheist because my mum did not indoctrinate me or let me be indoctrinated. Both my parents made me and my brother look things up and taught us to think critically and investigate. In fact THEY taught us what our school should have done rather than mucking around with empty rituals of hymns and prayers. We do need to start complaining loudly and on mass about this because in a way it's our own freedom of belief being taken away. If we don't do anything we are letting this 'dying institution' claw it's way back to life at the cost of our children's minds.

Onagar wrote:

""It is intolerant people who want to force their opinions on others and won't simply live and let live"

Indeed it is and that is why religion must be opposed and forced to go back to being the private concern of individuals and not something imposed by the state."

Onagar - do you not see the irony of how intolerant your own view is here? Secularism/atheism is a worldview, with its own set of assumptions and perspectives, just like any given religious worldview. To try and impose secularism as the only acceptable public viewpoint is as intolerant as any religious fundamentalism.

Onagar also wrote:
"Also someone has made this point, but when was the last time you were visited by atheists telling you that your children were going to suffer horribly if you didn't join their cult. "

I have been told by an atheist that by taking my children to church I am committing child abuse and I should stop doing it and be an atheist like them. I have never had a religious person of any viewpoint tell me that I should join their cult or my children would suffer horribly. Again, my experience of atheism is one of intolerant, narrow minded fundamentalism of the sort that gives religions a bad name. I am sure only a minority of atheists are like this, just as only a minority of religious people are, but it only takes a vociferous minority to poison the public perception of a well meaning, considerate, law abiding majority.

I am wondering where piscesmoon learned to expect no help from an atheist and more importantly where they learned to judge-by-label.