to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

How refreshing posieparker-I think they do know their mind from the off. I wish I could remember which children's author it was, but he was being interviewed for a Sunday newspaper and he had been adopted by Plymouth Brethren when only a few weks old. He had rejected it all. He said that he felt sorry for his parents because they obviously thought that they had a baby to mould, but he just knew with 'every ounce of his being' from as long as he could remember that it was against everything he believed in.
I think that people should have faith in their own DSs. I know that mine are kind, caring and honest-they have all the characteristics that matter. Whether they believe in God or not is immaterial. They have their own minds and don't just follow the crowd. I know they wouldn't be candidates for a cult or Muslim fundamentalists because they have been exposed to different views and don't take my word for things. I remember a Jehovah Witness DC who didn't want to take part in a play because 'mummy wouldn't like it'. She hadn't a clue why 'mummy didn't like it' but I am perfectly sure that she was right-'mummy wouldn't have liked it' and that was all that mattered! The fact that the DC didn't have anything against it and really wanted to take part didn't count.

'I'm more than happy to give my ds the full picture and I'll explain exactly who believes what and the subsequent destruction of millions of people's lives it has caused'

I see nothing wrong in this as long as you take the logical conclusion and if your DS doesn't believe this you respoect his views. It works both ways-if you want people to respect your views then you have to respect theirs-even if they are your own child.

I expect that your DC takes after you spacehopper and you won't have any problems but IF I was your DS I owuld take myself off to church just because I couldn't stand the dogmatic 'I am right' approach. It would make me militant. My mother doesn't control my mind-never has and never will! Luckily she has never tried-she accepts me as I am and not as she wants to mould me.

I think, as an atheist household where language about faith and belief has little or no meaning, I am giving my dcs more choice about faith. I think finding God is only something you can do with a childlike mind(people who find God later in life have the seed planted in their childhood) and without this to return to I give my dcs no option but to live a life without faith. This has suited me but I can't impose this upon my dcs.

I will leave you all too it.
I don't believe that I have manipulated the thread!
I have one point and one point only-if you are talking to your DCs about religion the words 'I believe' should go in front of it and if schools are talking about religion the words 'Christians believe' or 'Muslims believe'etc should go in front of anything said-IF these words go in front (unlike the American evangelist who was presenting it as truth)I see no harm in DCs being exposed to other views.
You are 100% your DS will have nothing to do with religion spacehopper because you are presenting it in 'only a moron' would believe type of manner, not with the words 'I believe' in front. You are presenting it as fact not opinion. It isn't something I am prepared to do with my DSs-not having had anyone try to place such forceful views on me as 'the truth' rather than 'the truth the way I see it'. I would do the opposite-not from belief-just as an act of rebellion.

Sorry about the punctuation or lack of it and the word sure should come after 100%

But Spacehopper without religion we would still have wars just under a different heading. This is a war about land, war about oil, war about water ways...People will always find a cause to fight for, a way of segregating, a way to join a clan. It's far too simple to believe that man would be more humane without religion. As an atheist I think faith is a place to be comforted and feel you have purpose, a place to escape blame and to have the unexplainable explained as well as a divisive mask. I do not need this to feel safe or to belief that my life has meaning, I don't need God in my life to explain things.
Long before the notion of religion or God man fought man, tribes were formed and wars began.

believe not belief .....

All wars come down to power and money. Religion is an excuse.

I wonder why you are so angry about religion spacehopper? Is it healthy to pass on that degree of anger?
I can't see it from that perspective-which is maybe why I am more laid back about it-take it or leave it-no big deal. I mix with those with a deep religious conviction, not just Christians, and atheists and those who are not bothered either way. My own family are like that -a total mix. They all just get on with it quietly. I don't know anyone who has so much anger about those who think differently.

Agree with posie and pisces, religion is an excuse and an easy one at that spacehopper and others who feel the whole "religion is the cause of all war" movement

I agree with posie, pisces and chilblains too.

"Santa didn't gas milions of people because of their religion."

You are not referring to the gassing of Jews by the Nazis, are you? Because a) that was not done to promote Christianity- Hitler was not a Christian b) they were not gassed because of their religion but because of their race: no distinction was made between believing Jews and atheist Jews (of which there were a fair few in Germany)

Is Italy a poor country btw?

I read terrific anger-I don't think it is healthy.
You also miss out all the good things done in the name of religion and the truly good people. You have no respect for those who have a belief, you don't care how hurtful you are to stamp all over their feelings. There is no recognition that it may bring great solice to people in times of personal anguish. Maybe you don't think that it should, but we are all different and people shouldn't be denigrated if it helps them.
It is all BAD,BAD,BAD with no redeaming features. Nothing is ever black and white-there are huge areas of grey in absolutely anything.If there was no religion in the world there would be just as many wars, just as much child abuse, just as much killing, just as much poverty. Ridding the world of religion wouldn't bring peace, joy, prosperity and equality to all. People would want power over others-nothing would change.
Live and let live. If you think that people are deluded, that is your privilege, but it is a bit unkind to shove it down their throats because they think differently. I rejoice in the fact that we all think differently-the world would be a drab, dull place if we all thought the same.
Who are you to say that the masses are deluded? It is merely your opinion. Communism tried to stamp it out and failed dismally. Many people need a spiritual dimension to their lives-material things are not enough. Why is this wrong?

I said that I was leaving the thread some time ago-so I will try not to get drawn back in.
Whatever you think it is Spacehopper, I feel the anger every time you post and it isn't something that I would pass onto a child. You certainly don't like me and I find you very intimidating-I would be scared to meet you in RL!

@ onagar

Right on all counts. I'v had to counter them all a dozen times.

"But Spacehopper without religion we would still have wars just under a different heading."

Perfect. this more than any other post shows the hollow and demonstrably perverse nature of religion. without it we would still have wars of course, but the fact remain that religion is a tool to make war easier. It is a delusion built on a lie to get our children out killing and hating other children. and don't give me the "lamb of god" "Christ is about forgiveness" and "love thine enemy" dross, because none of the Abrihamic religions have anything to do with their own message. they are and have always been a means to an end for the powerful at the expense of the weak.

So no I won't be exposing DD to this poison any more than I would let her play with a loaded gun. and no frock wearing pervert is going to make Me, or her feel guilty about it.

Since this thread started I've been racking my brains to think of a single bit of good religion has done the world....

Nope...

Nothing....

Coming in late to the discussion. I'm firmly with those who posit that religion is an excuse for war, and war/restrictive practises represents mankind subverting religion to provide an easy excuse to perpertrate evil or to practise oppression respectively.

I like my dd to have exposure to religion(s)in order to emphasise the good that is possible. The Jesus stories in the Bible are all fables about doing good. Think of the Quakers, conscienscious objectors in the front line of war as ambulance staff.

As with evil acts (eg 'religious' wars) the question is whether we do good to each other for the sake of a Deity, or for each other.

I'm a biologist, I believe that group altrusim is an essential part of evolution.

This doesn't stop us going to church, regularly, or marching at the Climate Change protest march with our church. I'm not convinced about God, I don't think that there's anything mandating me to be good or evil. But I'd really like my dd to learn via the stories of Jesus, Buddha, and any other of that ilk, of how to be a good person.

I have come to resent that my fundamentalist atheist parents denied me a huge portion of knowledge from my own cultural heritage. I used to beg them to let me go to Sunday school as my friends did and they'd tell me, 'Oh no you don't understand. That's for loonies. They tell you mad stuff which isn't true.'

Their radical, aggressive atheism led to an embarrassing ignorance on my part. It also meant I searched for years to make sense of the feelings I had about other worldliness and, um, big stuff (see I still don't have the language) and had to fill gaps and work out my own path. My parents rampant secularism meant I was denied any spiritual teachings and made to feel that any spiritual feelings I had were laughable and childish. I want my kids to have more choice.

I love that DH takes my kids to mass. I also tell them I don't believe in all of it and that they will be expected to make up their own minds. By allowing them to see this world I feel I am expanding their repertoire and giving them the choices I never had.

It's not brainwashing. It's just part of education and it's your job to counter it at home.

Why is it that if you insist you believe that things nobody else can see are watching you and controlling the minutae of your life, you get a shot of Thorazine and a snug fitting new shirt - UNLESS you go to church? In which case, it's decided that you're perfectly sane and an upstanding member of the community!

I think that Spidermama's post shows the problems to a child when parents are so dogmatic that there is no place for them to say the opposite. You may call it passion spacehopper, but I call it hatred. I am not going about in daily life harbouring such hatred, it would make me ill.
I think the reason that I find it so upsetting is that when I said that I would rebel as a child I was lying. I was a wimp-which is why I find you overpowering now. I know perfectly well that if I was your DS I would say 'yes mummy, no mummy, 3 bags full mummy'-how could I possibly tell you that I was looking for more when you are so forceful, so sure you are right, and so full of hatred? There is no room to say a mild I don't agree-you wouldn't listen to a 5 yr old-you showed that in your very first post, I can't quote it exactly with out looking back but it was in capital letters and it boiled down to 'he WILL believe what I want him to believe'. I don't understand how you can tell someone else what to believe just because he is smaller than you and lives with you. He isn't your possession-he has a mind of his own.If I was your DC,my only option, with my personality, would be to keep quiet, have an inner life that was completely secret from you and to leave home at the earliest opportunity. The material life isn't enough for me, I want a spiritual side and I want answers and although I accept that you don't, I don't see why it can't be live and let live-respect the differences. I am quite happy for people to have no beliefs, I am quite happy for my DCs to be atheists but I am not happy that I don't get equal respect and I am called deluded or worse.
It all boils down to belief. People either believe in a supreme deity or they don't believe in one. No one KNOWS. No one can KNOW. I can't prove there is a God, equally no one can prove there isn't one.

Perhaps I ought to amend that to no one can prove it-either way to my satisfaction. It is merely a leap of faith-either way (to me).

I grew up with atheist parents - and didn't have to rebel. When I said I wanted to go to church, they waited dinner. And when my children said they did not want to go to church, I let them stay in bed. We don't have to call each other deluded.

Though anyone who thinks the gassing of the Jews was for the sake of religion is deluded.