to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

So why is it that places in faith schools are generally more sought after by parents than non faith schools? They must be doing something right, and if that something is a Christian ethos, then why is that a bad thing?

interesting point of view on why faith schools are so popular.

Just a single instance, so not scientific at all, but DDs school was the best in the area as well as the only non affiliated one.

bloody hell. Even in our Catholic school no one mentioned hell or the devil! And progressive it was not!
Poor you. You are not unreasonable at all - the school is. Tell them you are a Jedi and this is offensive to your religious beliefs about light sabres
madness

I would be livid!

I would also check out the rule about state schools being affiliated to a church. If it is the case then I would start campaigning. If this was the case then why bother with specific 'faith' schools. They have right to believe what they want but not to teach your children that their philosophy is 'true' especially as it seems to be being done without your knowledge or consent.

I would pull my son out of those assemblies as I assume the school are not accompanying these assemblies with the alternate (and more likely) information on natural history (you know, those ideas we have solid evidence in favour of). Where is the secular humanist speaker? Oh yes, I forgot, they don't have an agenda or a 'truth' to spread to the impressionable minds of other peoples' children.

But why are some of you so angry? I just can't get that worked up about it I'm afraid.

picesmoon speaks a lot of sense.

Withdrawal from assemblies isn't an acceptable solution for most of us. Here is a quote from the BHA which should explain:

We have campaigned and lobbied for over a century for the rights and interests of humanists and other non-religious people in education, for non-religious beliefs to be respected in schools, and for a genuinely inclusive school system where all pupils are educated together, not separately according to the beliefs of their parents, and will receive a rounded and broad education.

(my bolding). Its also why Humanists don't want to set up Humanist schools. We don't want to indoctrinate our children or seperate them from the children of religious parents.

My view is, YANBU. Our children currently dont have a right to a secular education but they should have. The arguments that it cant happen till after disestablishment has no logic to it at all. Most state provided services have no religious bias at all, there is no reason why education still should have.

Teach children about RE. Dont tell them it is (or isn't) True.

@ troublewithtalk

I'm am not trying to shield DD from the reality of the adult world. I am trying to ensure that a complete stranger doesn't take over a significant part of her parenting.

I would prefer that she is not singled out and excluded, Ive tried not to interfere to much with the school as that would antagonize them. We made an agreement and I want them to honor it. They are in loco-parentis and they need to understand that is at my sufferance, not a licence to confuse my child.

Also, I would not say that being brainwashed at seven will make her MORE understanding of others, my (limited) experience is the opposite.

There are 2 issues though.

The OP's daughter is, in her view (which I share), receiving RI. This is not a good thing. I am Christian and I would be withdrawing my child from assemblies of that type. OTOH would never withdraw them from RE which is a completely separate and necessary part of the curriculum but I do think that RE should include belief systems which aren't religions (atheism).

Schools must provide collective worship which must be broadly Christian. This is the law and will not change until church is separated from state as England is still a CofE country with a state religion, regardless of what the NHS or other state services do. Incidentally the Civil Service have Maundy Thursday as a privilege day so there are Christian influences in other state services. I'm of the opinion that some form of community togetherness is a good thing. Prayers can be addressed to anything or no-one, they don't have to be overtly religious but as far as Christmas and Easter go I still think they do have cultural importance and should be marked by the school.

That's completely separate to having a vicar in to talk and pray though. I do think the school are in the wrong, particularly with regard to staff teaching Tinnitus's DD about their own personal faith, the evangelical assemblies and the vicar's behaviour but I would be interested to see an observation of the lessons the vicar takes.

"doesn't take over a significant part of her parenting" have I missed something? I'm going to re-read in case I have and come back to this later.

This is RI not RE. so yes I'm sure that's the case.

I have no problem with RE.

"But why are some of you so angry? I just can't get that worked up about it I'm afraid.

picesmoon speaks a lot of sense."

Really couldn't agree more. I'm sure many of you don't mind your children believing in santa, the easter bunny, tooth fairies and yet a big problem arises when religion arises. Children are not brainwashed. They are told something that they often stop believing in (judging by the statistics) when they get older anyway, just as they stop believing in santa.

I went to a school that had the christian ethos, my mum had a different religion and she didn't mind at all. When I came home talking about the true meaning of Christmas (we didn't celebrate Christmas at home), she just calmly sat me down and said, that's what the Christian religion believes, I as a ....... believe ....." It is very simply done. If she had started ranting and raving I would have thought wtf??? (although the primary version of it ) The best thing she ever encouraged me to do was ask questions.

Instead of having a mini seizure just teach your dc's how to ask questions. If this is the only problem you have with the school, I would suggest you are actually quite lucky. It really isn't a big deal. By the time I was a teenager i didn't believe what the school was teaching and had started to question how a man could be God and the son of God at the same time etc (not wanting to start a theological debate, just showing the point that, because someone is taught one thing - especially when it comes to religion - doesn't mean they will believe it forever and eternity.

@ damnedchilblains

Quite right, and I have underplayed it to DD. But the point is they made an agreement and haven't kept to it.

I have been out all day and I see that no one has answered my question-why do you think that your child has to have your beliefs? Why is it important?

"But the point is they made an agreement and haven't kept to it." Then Tinnitus YANBU, if the school made an agreement with you they should have stuck to it. Simple as.

"why do you think that your child has to have your beliefs?" I don't think many people think their child has to have their beliefs, but if you have beliefs then surely you think they are right and would thus hope that your children shared in them. That just makes common sense to me.

Children believe in Father Christmas, a little Jesus story won't hurt.

I hoped that my children would have my beliefs, but they haven't- and they decided this for themselves at a very early age. Making a 6 yr old go to church when he doesn't want to is hardly going to produce a Christian! He would do what my father did, after a childhood of forced chapel attendance,never go again! It is counter productive.
My cousin, who is a nominal C of E (Christmas, Easter type) has a DD who wouldn't get married in a church and won't have her DD christened and a DS whose whole social life at university revolves around the scripture union and the local church. They were brought up the same way. No one thinks this odd or that she has failed in some way or that she should have MADE them think one wy or another.
I just can't see why when you give birth you expect that your DC will follow your beliefs. Obviously you bring them up that way but they don't have to agree and they shouldn't IMO be closed off from other views. If my parents had been Jehovah Witnesses, I see no reason whatsoever why I should be one-and I think that I would have worked out by the age of 5 yrs that it wasn't what I wanted-in fact I am sure of it.

I would much rather that mine heard all sides, questioned everything and made up their own mind-from an early age. You can't suddenly make up your mind as an adult with nothing to go on and no experiece but your parents and having been closed off from otherviews by your parents. I hate the idea that you say to your 5 year old 'Mummy says there is no God -it is a load of nonsense and you WILL think that it is a load of nonsense because I SAY SO and I have total control of what you think and no one is allowed to tell you otherwise'!
I still don't see -coming from a family with a whole range of views- why it matters. You may be a raging atheist but you could be the mother of a future bishop! Does this make you love them less? Is love conditional on them toeing the family line? Is a Christian supposed to be upset because their DC thinks for themselves and rejects it? I find the censorship weird.

Only skimmed it cos I've read it all before.

You are right to be annoyed, but it's hard to stop it. Everyone will say you are just being fussy and no harm to it.

Someone will already have posted I'm sure that it's only like being taught about other cultures.

WRONG! because they teach that it is the truth.

Someone will have said that it's good for them to be taught morals. After all only Christians have morals!

WRONG: the rest of us think about ours and don't just have them handed to us.

Someone will have said that it's only the same as telling them about Santa.

WRONG: I don't personally pretend santa is real (just a game) and certainly not to ensure a future supply of converts for my own ends.

I doubt there will be any original ones.

Ridiculous, I am atheist always have been..never prayed at school (was supposed to) but knew my mind right from the off. Two boys at Catholic school one believes in God the other doesn't.

I started to skim again and realised I missed one.

"how can Christmas and Easter not be Christian? They're celebrating the birth of Christ and the ressurection of Christ"

WRONG:

While some do celebrate them as religious festivals most of us do so for other reasons. They existed before Christianity and Christians just moved over the supposed dates of birth and insurrection to fit.

Easter with its eggs was originally about a fertility goddess of course. Most of the trappings of christmas and easter are taken from pagan rites. Eggs, Yule log, mistletoe and so on. We don't mind you celebrating yours on the same day though if you like.

"Someone will have said that it's good for them to be taught morals. After all only Christians have morals!

WRONG: the rest of us think about ours and don't just have them handed to us."

erm nobody said only Christians have morals.

"Someone will have said that it's only the same as telling them about Santa.

WRONG: I don't personally pretend santa is real (just a game) and certainly not to ensure a future supply of converts for my own ends."

Actually many people don't say that santa is a game, I had a terrible time undoing the santa myth from my 4yo when he heard about it all from the school this year. I hate santa and what it stands for but I didn't kick up a stink, I just asked that he not go in to see santa. The future supply of converts stuff well I don't know about that.