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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

781 replies

Tinnitus · 26/03/2010 17:04

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

OP posts:
piscesmoon · 30/03/2010 08:40

That is all I am trying to say cory- and that is all I have done, but the other way around.
A dogmatic parent either gets a rebellious child or a secretive one-unless they are lucky and get one who is just like them. It is just as important to listen as to speak.

WebDude · 30/03/2010 08:46

LOL coldtits - how very true.

I'd like to see all religious teaching to under 16s banned because youngsters (in the main) have no options or alternatives - they are indoctrinated, and I'd agree, brainwashed into thinking theirs is the correct (if not 'best' or 'only') faith, and everyone else is wrong.

So many wars are the result of disputes between groups believing the others are enemies, in a large part, because they have 'bad' beliefs. OK, there may be other aspects to disputes, but we've seen quite a lot in recent years, from Bosnia to Nigeria and as for the Middle East, clashes between groups even under the umbrella of Islam, when it comes to factions in Baghdad, not only do Shi'ite clash with Shia groups, but there are disputes between Shi'ite and other Shi'ite groups!

All these man-made rules seem to me to have roots in wanting power and to quell unruly elements. After all, much of what goes down as gospel is to do with belief in one God above anything else, the bringing of gifts or money, and on the flip-side, that failure to be good or accept their (man made) rules will lead to eternal damnation, in Hell.

How convenient that if there are any non-believers, they are outcasts and unworthy, or, if there get to be sufficient numbers, then they are wrong and (to put not too fine a point on it) deserve all they get!

Sorry, to me it is guff and twaddle. It is as close to brainwashing as you can get, legally, when one is expected to believe in some invisible, omnipotent, all encompassing being, without anything other than parents and "elders and betters" telling you that's the truth.

Spidermama - it should not be for a parent to need to "counter it at home" when "the system" seems unable to cater for non-believers, while respecting every other belief is acceptable. Unless it is considered a 'cult' of course, or pagan.

I'm really not interested in religion and have not studied it, so would fail to give well rehearsed cases in most any "argument" or deep discussion on religious matters.

I was brought up as a Catholic, with a strongly Catholic mother (having converted from being Methodist so she could marry her first husband, age 18). Having been married, become a mother and then widowed, age 19, in the early stages of the Second World War, my mother later married my father, who was not Catholic.

My primary school was attached to the R.C. church, about 100 metres from our home. When my father died, I went away to a Masonic boarding school, where I was the only Catholic, didn't attend their Sunday service, and was expected to go outside the school to the nearby Catholic church, though I personally had no wish/ interest. Back in Sussex, after quitting the boarding school, and going into a CofE Grammar school, I was going towards the church in time for the evening service and said to my Mum that I wasn't going to attend.

We enjoyed an hour or more simply walking along the canal discussing religion, and she knew I was simply not persuaded by any "facts" that there was a God, and the matter never came up again between us. There was a service in memory of her at her local church, following her death (not a funeral - her body had been donated for medical research), I was the only person not in the church, but spent my time in the hall, ensuring everything was ready for tea and sandwiches, for the attendees.

As you can see, despite the strength of her feelings, my mum was able to accept that her beliefs were not shared by me. Perhaps because she was a convert and had given up one religion for another, she could see the world has many shades of grey, rather than a simple yes/no to a specific religion being 'correct'.

I am fairly happy to accept anyone can believe what they like, so long as they don't (1) harm others, or be forceful - eg some cults, and (2) accept that others may have different views. Anyone who expects they can use verbal or other force to express their opinions and expect others to accept them are not welcomed by me, and their views would be rejected in the strongest manner possible.

troublewithtalk · 30/03/2010 08:56

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piscesmoon · 30/03/2010 09:52

There wouldn't be a problem if people were accepted as they were, troublewithtalk, rather than as other people wish them to be.
Your mother did the right thing WebDude-it is a shame that troublewithtalk's father can't do the same.
My father was brought up by strict Methodists but once he had left home his parents accepted that he had rejected it and they still had the same loving relationship. He was the same person.
I still don't see why it is such a big deal if you don't think the same way as your parents. There would be a huge outcry if someone said 'I have been a member of the Labour Party all my life and my DC is being brought up with Labour principles and he WILL vote Labour' and yet it seems to be acceptable to say 'I am an atheist-my DC is being brought up to be an atheist and he WILL be an atheist' or 'I am a Catholic and I am bringing up my DC to be a Catholic and he WILL be a Catholic'. He might not-it isn't in your gift to control his mind.
I think there is a long history of DCs brought up in the church leaving it as adults-it is very, very common. Maybe those who took that route can't get their head around the fact that it might work the other way. My cousin who has the deeply religious DS, obviously has one who takes after his grandmother, rather than his parents.

Spacehopper5 · 30/03/2010 10:01

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Spacehopper5 · 30/03/2010 10:04

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posieparker · 30/03/2010 10:12

Religion is used to do terrible things, but a few of the most horrific episodes of genocide I can think of religion was absent. Pol Pot did all he did in the name of communism didn't he, as did a few Russian leaders.....and there is no religious force in China.www.mumsnet.com/images/buttons/post_message.gif

Tinnitus · 30/03/2010 10:20

@ Picesmoon

"no one can prove it-either way to my satisfaction. It is merely a leap of faith-either way (to me)."

Sorry, But that doesn't make sense. In the modern world we have a society where there is a burden of proof. If something cannot be proven then it is not acceptable to require it to be dis-proven. for example, if I contend that the stars are suns, not unlike our own, viewed from a great distance. I should not have to counter the views of someone who believes they are holes in the blanket of the night sky. the burden of proof is firmly on them.

I understand that for some people, faith brings great comfort, and that is their business, and is no excuse for imposing unprovable, unproven beliefs on a seven year old.

It is not acceptable to say that I must allow her to be exposed to these things, particularly in a school environment. When she is an adult she can believe what she wants, but while she is a child I will teach her to demand proof and hope that prepares her for the sales pitches of the various faiths around.

OP posts:
piscesmoon · 30/03/2010 10:24

'I'm just very passionate about what I believe in and this is an open forum and we are debating, aren't we? Or have you given up?

I assumed that you wanted me to continue the debate-since I am boring I will definitely go, on the third attempt.

' he will make up his own mind and I am 100% confident he WILL agree with me. '

REALLY? About another person?
There is one person that you can control in this life and that is you. There has to be an element of doubt in what you expect from anyone else.
I have lived in my house for 20 yrs and I know many of the DCs from 'mother and baby groups', I have watched them grow up to adults and the one thing that I can tell you for absolute sure is that they don't always grow up the way that you would expect (or the parent would expect)!!

SolidGoldBrass · 30/03/2010 10:24

People who believe in magic sky faires always start whining that it's 'unfair' of rational people to point out that there's no such thing, if you want to believe crap you're welcome to but don't expect other people to take it seriously.
I will be pointing out the ridiculousness of religion and its toxic side to DS at every opportunity and as he is a very clever child I have high hopes that he will remain happily free of it all his life. Because it still boggles me that intelligent people can actually take this nonsense seriously.

posieparker · 30/03/2010 10:29

BTW I am an atheist.

troublewithtalk · 30/03/2010 10:30

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Tinnitus · 30/03/2010 10:34

@ Picesmoon

Yep, it't funny how many catholics have catholic parents, ditto Hindus, ditto Muslims, ditto Buddhist, ditto Taoists.

Why are you so sure that the ONLY group who can substantiate their opinion will fail to pass their clear sightedness on to their DCs?

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 30/03/2010 10:36

TWT: WHy should your father listen 'respectfully' to what he knows is tedious nonsense? You're entitled to hold your silly beliefs, you're not entitled to bore other people with them.

Spacehopper5 · 30/03/2010 10:38

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piscesmoon · 30/03/2010 10:41

Definitely going but to answer:

'Why are you so sure that the ONLY group who can substantiate their opinion will fail to pass their clear sightedness on to their DCs?'

I don't think ANYONE from ANY group can do it.

You are quite right I am ground down!! Totally! I thought it was a fairly mild view that a child should hear all sides, all sides putting 'I believe' in front of anything they say and make up their own mind. Obviously it isn't a mild view (judging from reactions) and children are possessions for you to tell only your view as a truth.

SolidGoldBrass · 30/03/2010 10:43

Maybe it's cognitive dissonance, piscesmoon_ the rattle in the head caused by trying to defend something that you actually know is rubbish (the existence of gods).

canucktraveler · 30/03/2010 10:50

Young children are impressionable and only know right and wrong from what they are taught by those older then them. Feeding them this information before they reach an age where they can be making decisions on their own IS indoctrination. When they are at an age that they can reason, make decisions and choices then I have no problem with RE as an option which can be chosen. State (public) schools should be secular. I have no problem with having faith schools but there should be a seperation as there is in every other first world country. The system here is very antiquated.

Tinnitus · 30/03/2010 10:53

Sorry Picesmoon.

That is blatant misrepresentation and you know it. I have said time and time again on this thread that I am happy for DD to hear about different faiths, but NOT as fact. I cant remember anyone saying any thing else.

Repeating points that have been countered over and over is very poor.

Playing the poor martyr and acting hurt at our intolerance is very poor.

In fact the last point you made about not thinking "ANYONE from ANY group can do it." flies in the face of all the evidence. you know that no one can say 100% what their children will think. but you twist that to imply that atheists are doomed to have deluded DCs.

That is not debate, it is irrational, and argumentative. and you know it.

OP posts:
Veritythebrave · 30/03/2010 10:58

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GrimmaTheNome · 30/03/2010 11:02

True Canuck.

You know, I don't think anyone here is actually saying 'my child MUST think the way I do'. On the contrary, what I hear is that we all would like them to learn about a variety of religions and world views.

But the point of the OP was that while she was conscienciously refraining from indoctrinating her child, a vicar comes into school believing he's got a God-given right to stand in a place of authority and present what he believes in is true.

Does anyone dispute that is objectionable?

And what she didn't say, but which adds to the unfairness, is that because humanists don't indulge in this sort of behaviour, and as yet non-theistic philosophies aren't given much weight in the RE curriculum, its very skewed.

posieparker · 30/03/2010 11:14

Actually canuck that is not right, young children do not always believe what they are told at school if it different from home. My DS, age eight, has never believed in God and refuses to participate in prayer at his Catholic school. Respectfully he is silent whilst others prayer, what a lesson that is...respect, tolerance and acceptance. His brother, just a school year behind joins in the sign language and spoken prayer and has a belief in God. I impartially tell both that they are entitled to their beliefs and both know that evolution is true and even my ds who believes in God knows much of the Bible is just stories, like creation for example.....I respect his belief but I have no tolerance for stupidity.

I think, if nothing else, the OP can explain 'beliefs' to her child and that to people who hold 'beliefs' that these are true to them, they do not have to believe them to respect them.

posieparker · 30/03/2010 11:15

pray...not prayer

Tinnitus · 30/03/2010 11:19

"I think, if nothing else, the OP can explain 'beliefs' to her child and that to people who hold 'beliefs' that these are true to them, they do not have to believe them to respect them."

Whilst I concede that my views are clear for all to see, could you find any posting of mine that even hints that I won't teach my child about respect for people and their rights.

Of course I respect peoples right to their beliefs. but I am under no obligation to respect their beliefs.

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CiderIUpAndSetIFree · 30/03/2010 11:25

Agree that state schools should be secular.

In this day and age it just doesn't make moral or practical sense for them to be anything else.

On the 'practical' side (leaving the huge moral dimension aside for a minute) - it's surely unfair on both teachers and children to put them in a position where children are quite likely to say to them 'well my mum/dad says you talk a load of old twaddle that we don't believe, so I'm not listening any more'.

Yes some children may be intelligent and polite enough to differentiate between fact-based and faith-based activities at school, and respect the difference, but many will not and it seems to me like it can only waste time and add to discipline problems.

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