to be a bit sickened by the apparent 'feminism' under study in the Women documentary?

[mrsbean78]

Dad staying at home to care for kids = househusband
Mum staying at home to care for kids =
full time mum

Each man challenged about how much housework he does, yet "househusband" also challenged about how well he does the housework by a wife who is irritated that he shrinks her cashmere jumpers and doesn't clean the bins, when clearly, as she says, she couldn't be expected to work and do housework.

All participants apparently comfortably well off enough to make the 'choice' about who works and who doesn't, living in beautiful leafy-suburb/rural pad type homes.

I don't feel it is at all representative of my life and am finding it terribly patronising to the men, don't know how others feel?

I have cashmere jumpers, I have cashmere jumpers, by the way did i mention i have cashmere jumpers????? shut up about the cashmere jumpers woman!!!

Houses not representative of us at all, but am a bit at the similarities between me and some of the women!!

I don't care for style feminism that patronizes men. I think it also patronizes women: it's as if someone is saying 'ooh, he's making a right mess - of the woman's job.'

It is all a bit smug middle class.

And some of the attitudes towards men are really patronising but it is making me think. And I would say I'm a feminist and I have a very equal relationship with my DH.

I am angry there are women depicted who are not happy with the domestic set up yet do nothing about it.

I have no issue with the women who have chosen to be at home and do traditional "women's work" because it's their choice.

But then maybe choice is a luxury too?

YABU to feel sickened though because it was never going to be anything different was it? I mean it's a BBC4 documentary. Or Radio 4 with pictures. They are featuring their demographic.

She can have her cashmere jumper but she should make some effort to wash it herself if she's going to criticize her partner for how he does it!

I can't understand why this documentary is so challenging of the men in relation to the gender division "why don't you clean out the bath, Charles??" but blithely glossing over this issue entirely when a woman openly admits that she didn't feel she should do any housework because she is the breadwinner. The 'househusband' family was the only one not asked who worked harder or for longer. The woman of this family also said she couldn't imagine what he did all day..

This isn't the sort of "equality" I want for my son's future. I don't think "feminism" should be so dismissive of men.

Agree, mrsbean. This isn't feminism. I really don't like the idea that little boys today are brought up looking at the adverts in the media and mostly seeing an image of men as useless, violent, or comically failing. It's not acceptable, and this documentary sounds like just another step in the wrong direction.

Disappointing - feminism as it applies to the priviledged middle classes but irrelevant to most women.

Justanothermanicmummy:
"YABU to feel sickened though because it was never going to be anything different was it? I mean it's a BBC4 documentary. Or Radio 4 with pictures. They are featuring their demographic."

This is what my husband said. However, I find it a bit worrying. Given that this particular demographic is an educated, perhaps even elite one, it makes me wonder what 'equality' is going to mean to the policy makers in twenty years time.

Certainly, in my own situation, we are really struggling to have my husband's flexible working application accepted. He is looking to compress his hours over a nine day fortnight so we could reduce our son's time spent in daycare. However, it seems unheard of in his workplace - and it seems to me that there is an equality issue here for both sexes. If my husband's request is denied, I will need to take more time off work (although we earn virtually the same). It also means that he won't get what he wants, in terms of time with our son.

That latter desire is still seen as something unlikely and even unwholesome by many. My husband grew up on a farm so spent time with his dad on a daily basis so it is natural to him. I think it made him a better man. Yet it seems so funny to some, and even I have had people ask me - even now - would I 'trust' him to mind our baby/not 'wreck' the house.

it would have been more interesting to examine why surgeons still have to work 12 hour days to get ahead in their chosen profession (male and female) so essentially the doctor had to forgo seeing her daughter through teh week simply to keep her job. the issue isn't who cleans the fecking bath, the issue is that feminism has only worked int eh sense that women can now work hard and achieve anything but only within the old creaking patriachal framework.

"trust him to mind our baby/not 'wreck' the house". Oh that is infuriating. They are human beings not half-trained chimps and as such can be 'trusted' to take responsibility for their lives. If they don't do things the same as their partner the partner is just going to have to let go a bit.

BariatricObama, great point.
If they want to talk about 'enslavement', this framework is still enslaving both men and women.

One of the few points I could agree with came from one of the featured mothers, who drew a distinction between feminism and capitalism. I will go out to work because capitalist forces have made it inevitable that I will have to. It is not my 'choice'.

If I could choose I would take a few years off to stay home with my kids while they are little and then re-enter the workforce without having damaged my career prospects irrevocably. I would happily undergo whatever 'refresher' courses necessary, but I would be enabled to re-enter without beginning again. My husband would also be able to have more flexibility to his work so we could have more time together as a family during these early years.

Not going to happen - and I work in the NHS as an allied health professional where I have quite a good deal re: flexible working. So much harder for others who are working in less female-dominated jobs.

spot on bariatric.

feminism started as women's liberation whose tenets included liberation for all people. true feminism is about liberating all of us from the unjust constraints of a relatively recent nuclear patriarchal society.

YANBU. I hate it when people pretend men are somehow biologically incapable of putting a load of washing on. It's like when bigwigs in offices pretend not to be able to use the photocopier or the fax machine - what they're really saying is that it's beneath them to bother.

PS and you are right - it is particularly irritating when it's other women saying "oh, he can't be expected to wash my cashmere jumpers properly". Patronising to men and demeaning to women.

have just read more of the posts on here and completely agree withbariatric, sprogger andsophable.

To be fair to the cashmere jumper lady - if you work from 08.00 - 03.00 then no, you can't do housework too, is anyone arguing with that?

I found it patronised both the men and the women, particularly if they were stay at home parents.

Well, I thought it challenged the WOMEN more than the men.

When she was asking the lawyer 'do you clean the bath?' wasn't it an implicit challenge to the wife, saying - why are you with your oxford degree cleaning this man's bath? And that was why she looked so uncomfortable.

Surely, that exchange will have made a lot of SAHMs at home wonder why indeed they were?

I don't remember anyone saying 'oh he can't be expected to do the washing.' I remember one man saying 'he couldn't' (the one whose wife left him) and others saying that the wife mostly did it.

it was about how the women shouldered the domestic responsibility - and WHY they did. Which was why there were a lot of questions about whether the women were 'controlling.'

I agree with BO though about what it could have been about, but the 70s feminism made it all about the housework too, and they did indeed overlook who would look after the children . . .

yes 100x, alot of feminisn in teh 80's was aoubt white middle class women wearing shoulder pads and shattering glass ceiling all the while relying on and underclass of women beneath them to look after kids and clean their homes.

I wonder how much the aim of this programme is to get across the message 'Look, ladies, feminism has Gone Too Far. Look at these selfish emasculating bitches and get back into the kitchen quickly before your husband STOPS FANCYING YOU!'

Yes, BO you're right, agree. And I think that's still true today isn't it. I remember Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a good book about it. And that came out with the rather poignant and difficult surgeons situation didn't it?

I thought one of the most telling things in a way, was the about the Aga lighting episode where the husband wondered why he had to light the Aga, when she could do it perfectly well herself.

i second your aga snorting! ffs!