to be a bit sickened by the apparent 'feminism' under study in the Women documentary?

[mrsbean78]

Dad staying at home to care for kids = househusband
Mum staying at home to care for kids =
full time mum

Each man challenged about how much housework he does, yet "househusband" also challenged about how well he does the housework by a wife who is irritated that he shrinks her cashmere jumpers and doesn't clean the bins, when clearly, as she says, she couldn't be expected to work and do housework.

All participants apparently comfortably well off enough to make the 'choice' about who works and who doesn't, living in beautiful leafy-suburb/rural pad type homes.

I don't feel it is at all representative of my life and am finding it terribly patronising to the men, don't know how others feel?

sorry, that should read either of us vs both of us to stay home!

high house prices have alot to answer for!
perhaps thatcher should be blamed for selling off all the council houses?

Mrs Bean and Just another manic mummy - I am not sure which way round it occured - but the result is the same. Housing costs, at least in the south east (rented or mortgaged) require 2 incomes.

Feminism is meant to be about choice, am I alone if feeling short changed?

Sure I have the education, the fairly well paid job, the domestic appliances my Grandma wouldn't recognise and the benefit of equalites legislation.

But where is the choice?

Exactly wicked.

There's no point having policies and laws giving equality if the reality is that women still don't have the same choices and treatnent men enjoy.

But what's to do?

Well put wickeddevil.

And yet we are even better off than so many women who are still firmly shackled by the patriarchal yoke e.g. sex workers spring to mind.

This is what I detested about the 'Women' documentary. It implies there is choice without adequately challenging that.. to the extent that LuBent told us they ommitted to mention that she and her family have a great deal less choice than was made out.

I don't see the point of a documentary like this one if it isn't adequately challenging the status quo. Perhaps because it is BBC4 its agenda is too subtle for the likes of me.

I think feminism was hijacked by the idea of never-ending-growth-capitalism to some extent. Yes, to me feminism is about being listened to when you say you've been raped, not being pawed by strange men, being able to have your own bank account, take out a loan, keep a job after marriage... all those things women couldn't do a hundred years ago. It isn't (to me) about having to compete in male terms in a male world.
Another aspect is women feeling they have to achieve in the world of work just when they're at their childbearing physical peak. I had my kids mid-twenties, on the (perhaps naive) basis that I can have a career in my 40s and 50s+ when they're independent. I figure our generation is going to be working til we're 70 at this rate- couldn't our increased life expectancy mean there's time for a break for childrearing and THEN a respectable career rather than being on the scrapheap after age 35?
Assumetheposition- they totally missed the chance to film me shouting. Lord knows it happens a lot.
MrsBean78- the director was good fun- she wanted me to represent a 'type' and no she didn't make it obvious that we're renting and economising. They filmed it 18 months ago so it's hard to remember. I think she wanted to provoke discussion in the nations' living rooms and am sure she did so!

Going back to an earlier point, LuBenT if you're still here I just have to admit that when you said that you couldn't hand your children over to someone else (that was you, wasn't it?) I gasped and felt really angry at first! But that's only because I feel so incredibly guilty about my choice to work full-time, so that reaction was all about me rather than anything to do with you. If that makes sense. I just wanted to say that in case you get a similar (nasty) reaction from anyone else.

Biggleboggle- guilt! We're all so good at that! And worrying about what other women think of us. Not feeling guilty about our choices- now that would be feminsm, but we all have such high expectations of ourselves and eachother.

Didn't Hilary Mantel say something about how women's lives are governed by timetables set by men? And got told off for approving of teenage pregnancy or some such? Let's see if I can find link ...

What did we ever do before google?

Yes, that's so true re: guilt. Although we both work full-time, my husband is the 'breadwinner' in that we couldn't survive without his income and we could without mine. His job is incredibly stressful and he works long hours. He's too nice to say this, but I think he has significantly less 'choice' than I do in how he lives his life. But one thing he doesn't have to deal with is the guilt, it simply wouldn't occur to him, partly because he's a bloke and partly because he has to go to work to pay our rent and buy our supper! I envy him that total lack of guilt (but not his job)!

Re: having the kids in your twenties and building the career later, I wish I had done that! I think it's a great idea especially as you say since we're all going to be working longer. Unfortunately I spent too much time with the wrong people in my twenties to make that possible! Although I sort of enjoyed my feckless youth, I also slightly regret it as I wasn't particularly building my career or a family at that stage!

I found the pseudo Jeremey Paxman style questioning of the men over whether they cleaned the bath to be OTT in this rather simplistic documentary...I bet most men, my DH included, would if 'asked'...but they truly don't even think about it!

I felt a bit sorry for the husband of Mrs 'Felicity Wishes', as he was sort of rendered a bit useless...I'm sure editing was the culprit, but maybe his wife's inadvertent comments didn't help! And yes, interestingly, the 'feminist' reporter did not attempt to be consistent and question the domestic arrangements in this particular house.

I feel my DH does try to do his equal 'bit' around the house, particularly at weekends (he is away a lot in week)...but I cringe to confess that I don't think he does the cleaning up bit all that thoroughly and like a lot women I would rather do it myself. He also, for example, washes the kids faces and cleans their teeth thoroughly, but won't even think about brushing their hair, so it will look a fright! He just doesn't see it! But he is great at 'playing' with the children, and sometimes I feel a teensy bit jealous because not a lot more is actually expected of him...rightly or wrongly.

I am a SAHM, having held senior roles in business...and effectively am having a long-ish career break. I have employed a cleaner to help out recently, once per week, because I now have 3 children and didn't want to effectively spend lots of my time cleaning rather than be with them ... she's more thorough than me anyway! Where I think a lot of SAHMs nowadays differ to women in the 50's say, is the element of choice in doing this; granted, however, it's maybe a privileged choice for part of the population.

I feel on reflection that it is not realistic to expect a totally equal division of responsibilities between partners...all manner of variables have to be taken into consideration...and its what works for an individual couple, that's critical. Mrs Oxford Graduate was not a downtrodden woman just because her husband didn't clean the bath! (She didn't seem to either, incidentally!). And she wasn't downtrodden just because she had chosen to put her career on hold for her children. Just as Mrs Felicity Wishes isn't some hard nosed bully because she has a talent which is she utilising successfully for the benefit of her family. However, I think women should expect more assistance from their men, both working mothers, who must work tiny miracles every day to keep on track (phew), and SAHMs...and the key thing to nag ask for it when necessary!!! Not quite what the 50's wife would have done.....

i didn't like the implication that having a degree from oxford means you shouldn't clean baths. is their a sliding scale? if you went to durham you can clean a sink?

And LuBen, I didn't think YOU came across as downtrodden either! Although, I thought the reporter made an attempt to present an image of Cath Kidston- esque domesticity ... drilling into your clearly tip top organisational skills! Why not, if it works for you. I am secretly jealous of the menu planning! Oh to be that organised...I felt you and your DH were united against her obvious attempts to divide!

Biggle - I don't know why you would be angry about someone saying 'they' wouldn't want to hand their child over to childcare...Its individual choice. Most people saying this aren't criticising those who do work, for using childcare. Its just a personal thing...but yes, understandably, guilt often rears its ugly head.

Noooo

the whole programme was poncetastic and i not relevant to working class women, guess they're just to busy being equal in the workplace and don't have time to bleat about washing bath tubs.

the husbands were very henpecked too imo.

awful show. told me nothing about feminism other than it's something for the middle class to bleat about at the WI and really has no relevance to their lives.

henpecked is a horrid expression

they seemed very careful choosing their words

they were on tv talking about feminism, i would have chosen my words carefully too.

Hi Dolcee. Isn't it a hallmark of these kinds of debates that often when women discuss their choices in terms of staying at home/working or a combination, others can take this as an implicit criticism of their own choices/situation, even though it rarely is. I am particularly likely to feel like that at the moment, because I am not sure that handing the care of my DD over to other people is the right thing to do - but I do it anyway. I'm not in any way saying that my initial reaction was justified or justifiable. Quite the opposite in fact. I was just trying to explain it in case anyone else had a similarly negative (but entirely unfair) response to LuBenT's comments - although I am sure she is perfectly capable of dealing with any such response perfectly adequately herself!!

Thought most of the husbands, well, all bar the 'cooking' lecturer guy (who was clearly in the good books, for not being a lazy bastard 'per se' )seemed sheepishly and uncomfortably defensive... I wondered if all the women had secretly agreed to do the show, and the men had come home to 'surprise'...'we're gonna be on telly'...

it wasn't luben who made the comment. it was pea heads wife

Hi Biggle...yes I agree...We often see 'veiled' criticisms in innocent remarks, even when we feel comfortable and solid in our choices. Its a womans thing, and we women should give each other a bloody break I think.

But that's life.

Btw, how old is your lo (and how old are you???) Just that I'm 40 now with 3 los, and mostly love it...it's also hard sometimes though. Anyway, I sleep well!

What's this about peaheads wife?

It should have been called Middle Class Women as far as I'm concered. It would have been more interesting to have a fuller scope of society and not just privileged (in different ways) families.
I found it quite alarming that the Surgeons were foregoing life with their child to 'get ahead' within their field...and were bringing another child into the world for someone else to rear. I really can't see the pont in having a child to then disregard them for a career.
Men were the 'household cleaning enemy' and I felt quite uncomfortable watching them squirm when asked the questions like 'do you clean the bath after yourself'. God yes, we would all like a man who cleaned up after everything that he did...but give them a bit of a break...is cleaning really that important in the grand scheme of things? Were cavemen meant to mop up the wild boar innards after spending all day hunting and then carrying the bloody swine home for tea? Why does cleanliness play such a big factor in our everyday lives? (I say this even though I'm smarting at the finger prints on my glass table). There were so many points to pick at I must stop before I bore you all to death but had to post as no-one that I've spoken to has seen this programme to be able to discuss.