to be a bit sickened by the apparent 'feminism' under study in the Women documentary?

[mrsbean78]

Dad staying at home to care for kids = househusband
Mum staying at home to care for kids =
full time mum

Each man challenged about how much housework he does, yet "househusband" also challenged about how well he does the housework by a wife who is irritated that he shrinks her cashmere jumpers and doesn't clean the bins, when clearly, as she says, she couldn't be expected to work and do housework.

All participants apparently comfortably well off enough to make the 'choice' about who works and who doesn't, living in beautiful leafy-suburb/rural pad type homes.

I don't feel it is at all representative of my life and am finding it terribly patronising to the men, don't know how others feel?

'and were bringing another child into the world for someone else to rear.' oh purlease, not that old chestnut

It's not that my children haven't been in childcare BariatricObama but 7-7, 5 days a week? I felt it was a long time. So yeh, that old chestnut. Obviously not aloud that opinion eh?

of course you are allowed an opinion. but i is based on 10 minutes of a television proramme. she was working hard towards being a consultant. i admired her dedication adn drive tbh

yes you are right. it's so easy to judge someone whilst cosied up in bed watching tv. She seemed successful and happy. I suppose when I drop of ds1&2 the guilt eats me up inside and so couldn't imagine how 7-7 would feel.

i think using a nanny must be nicer than dragging them out of bed and off to nursery or a childminder.

Yes for sure, it's a 'nice to have' But just being away that long. I have a little tear regularly driving to work and leaving them behind. Big softy really.

i used to get dh to leave dd at nursery otherwise it was a weepathon

Hello LuBenT

Can I be nosey and ask how you were recruited to appear in the programme? I mean, did Vanessa Engle actually ask for a particular type of participant? Just wondering if she was specifically looking for couples from a certain demographic group.

I am a member of a support/lobby group called Full Time Mothers (it's about to change it's original 1990s name for something more up to date!) and Vanessa's researcher posted a thing on their forum which I replied to. I think she was actively looking for middle class women- the classic 'have it all' type to see if they really had it all perhaps. I thought it was going to be more about childcare choices than domestic chores (and detergent choices!) so perhaps she changed tack after she'd done the interviews etc.

I am really intersted in this whole series but this programme only focused on the (very) middle class and therefore annoyed the shit out of me. In addition to the cashmere jumpers bit they interrogated another couple senseless about the bloody washing powder they used!

i was wondering if they were mumsnetters

I agree with dittany that the interviewer was a strange feminist. I felt she trivialised feminism by concentrating on middle class women and bath cleaning. I expect next week's programme will probably do the same, this time concentrating on something like women's emancipation to be pole dancers and enjoy porn.

I think concentrating on domestic chores made it all look trivial. I can't remember exactly, but didn't the stay at home husband clean the bath etc.? Seems to me that marriage is a partnership, and that it is reasonable for the stay at home partner to do the housework, since the other partner is working at the office. Making a huge issue out of it made everyone look a bit silly. That was possibly the aim.

yes you're right, if they are both working then they should share it. Trouble is with people involved you can never get a real 50-50 sharing. Someone is always lazier than the other. More men are slobs than women in general, but sometimes you also get a Waynetta married to a fastidious cleanliness freak of a man. In that case, either the man does it or it doesn't get done. Also I think there is a tendency for the highest earner to expect the other partner to do more housework. I agree that many husbands do think it is their due, which is wrong. But I don't think that it is really an issue worthy of an hour's documentary.

Tbh I have very little tolerance for women who allow themselves to be such doormats - especially the middle class women in the programme who had so much power in terms of education, jobs, class etc.

i agree with dittany, that was the scariest part, the woman working ft, and still taking on the lions share, or actually all of it.

felt really sorry for that surgeon, whos fellow surgeon, had no imput in sorting out the nanny etc at all.
and that it was easier for his wife to take the calls at work than him.

don't see it my arse!

high tolerence for flith and mess yes!

also if you dropped round a couple friends house, and the place was a tip, who would seem the most
the husband or the wife? regardless of who works?
probably the wife
not saying thats right at all, but its how it is in alot of relationships

If I went out of the home to work, I would expect my partner to split the housework 50/50 with me (or both pay for a cleaner)- that's how it worked before we had children. But if one of you is at home to look after the children it makes sense to do the housework during the day- thus giving everyone hopefully free time in evenings and weekends to hang out together or disappear off separately.
As I've chosen to be at home with kids I use the time to do home stuff. One thing the director cut was me explaining that I don't get down on the carpet and play with my children all day- can't stand doing that. As an individual (married or not, parent or not) it's important to me to grow food, cook well, make things rather than buy them so that's what I do while keeping an eye out so children don't meet a sticky end. I feel I pull my weight by making our lives cost less, my partner pulls his by bringing in some needed cash.
WRT being in control/in an equal relationship, if I want to get away for the weekend to see friends I can happily leave my partner with the kids, no questions asked (and he's not 'babysitting'!!!!). Seeing women working just as hard as men outside the home AND being ultimately responsible for all aspects of home life as well is depressing. I guess what I'm saying is SAHM are S'ing at H for all kinds of different reasons.

The point about middle class, educated, career women still doing the majority of the household chores and childcare (even if it was must "managing" it) was interesting for about 15 minutes. What would have made the documentary much more worthwhile imo would have been exploring what feminism has meant for other kinds of women. Not looking at the nanny who made the surgeon's life possible was such a missed opportunity.

agree with Missus84, the programme was firing at the wrong target

And if you look at the latest mumsnet survey it shows that a good percentage of women are working more hours than they'd like to. That's not liberty!

If feminism is just about liberating rich women by paying poor women to do their shit work, then it's pointless. The SAHM who mentioned capitalism vs feminism in terms of "choosing" to work etc was the only one who made a worthwhile point at all.

Thanks Missus84- that was me! I think the two issues have been muddled, and feminism is worth keeping separate and un-sullied by male neo liberal capitalism!